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| MAC P-poor service | Rate Topic |
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 07:16 | 1st Post |
| More on my macbook.... ....it has osx 10.4.11 tiger, media players won't iwork with this version. So, I need an upgrade. Off I goes to the nearest MC shop in Reading, to eventually be acknowledged by staff. ....asked what time my appointment was. Explained I didn't have one and as far as I was aware I was standing in a high street shop, not my GP's Explained I needed to go to Lion, but that tiger doesn't have the mac app update function, so could I purchase a disc. Was then told that mac don't do discs, everything is online, and that to go to Lion I have to go to Snow Leopard first, but Snow Leopard is not a download. So the upshot here is that I'll get stung twice, and also have to WAIT for SL disc to arrive first. Shop assistant then rudely disappears to see to his 'appointments'....without providing ME as a CUSTOMER with what I want. If I were to give further description to this abysmal level of service, it would be something along the lines of;....absolutely shite and if this is the crack I'm going off MAC's I think I'll visit the store again, preview and test a £2,000+ G5....for my son who is doing IT at Nottingham.....then tell the sackless bstds why there won't be a sale.
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| Posted by Doug: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 07:25 | 2nd Post |
| Apple do snow leopard on DVD and lion in a USB, so you were misinformed Prices here are $29/$39 apple/high street for sl and $79/$89 for lion Lion is upgrade only, not sure about sl Best bet is to check if the $39 sl disc will run on your mac (call apple) then with your newfound ability to download from the app store purchase your app store upgrade (best bet is to wait for mountain lion later this month though - $20)
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| Posted by Doug: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 07:30 | 3rd Post |
| Btw, you must have approached a genius at the genius bar, was there no one else serving?
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| Posted by Doug: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 07:35 | 4th Post |
| Getting billed twice, but not really getting stung since new versions of OSX once cost $130 (still half of windows cost) and now cost less than $100 even in the worst case described above and as little as $20 if your mac was running snow leopard (post August 2009) and you upgrade later than this month
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 07:36 | 5th Post |
Doug wrote:Apple do snow leopard on DVD and lion in a USB, so you were misinformed Yes I was misinformed, the staff there was an inpatient little prk. Besides, say for instance I took the MB in there without a hard drive, and asked for it back fully running with the latest software....it would have been done in store. So why couldn't I have been told?..." no problem SIR, leave it with us for couple of hour and we'll install for you. I tried phoning apple, but here in the UK we get a stupid robot asking us to talk to her as if she was a real person, well, forgive me but this is just downright insulting and I won't be talking to no profit maximising robot. So much for the great MAC reputation of sterling customer service....what a load of baloney, it's just total shyte.  Time for a cracked download.....not difficult to see why people do this.
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| Posted by Doug: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 07:46 | 6th Post |
| http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/08/27/apples_snow_leopard_disc_will_install_on_tiger_macs.html
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 08:01 | 7th Post |
Doug wrote:http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/08/27/apples_snow_leopard_disc_will_install_on_tiger_macs.html Very kind of you to provide that info Doug, but I already know it will install. The problem is that with a MAC store just down the road, I expect to walk in, and walk out satisfied. Given their alleged service standards if I ask them to go up to the car park and change my engine oil, I expect it to be done. What kind of outfit is it that doesn't provide a means of software upgrade by walking into their high street branch?.... ....I can tell you: one that wants to make you wait, look down it's nose at customers with a stupid appointments system in a high street shop, and sneakily sting you twice for one product. Oh and I did manage to get through by phone to the Reading branch and ask for SL on a USB drive, guess what?...they're out of stock. WRONG ANSWER, TOTALLY USELESS! Count on it I will be going back into that branch, and after wasting a good couple of hours of staff time, telling them why `i wouldn't buy from them. ....same revenge trick also works with car dealers, go back another time, take a test drive, a long one, waste plenty of fuel and staff overheads, then tell em why you won't be buying the car. Done it myself, and they don't like it. Mac?...PAH! nicely built gear but crap customer service. PC world do better, frankly.
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| Posted by Doug: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 08:12 | 8th Post |
| That trick really doesn't work, since the staff still get paid and you just end up wasting a couple of hours of your own time Sometimes you get to deal with jerks You could cut off your nose and abandon the Mac, you could try to work your way through their phone system to get to a real person (apple are pretty wise about this and it should be easy to get to a real person, you can go elsewhere, you could steal their software (sorry crack it) I recommend you call them, suffer through the robot, maintain your composure and express your concerns. - if you order online you could usually have an item like this in 3 days and if you have any trouble ask to 'escalate' the issue Also, are you sure you didn't just get out of bed the wrong side...  steve of oxford wrote: WRONG ANSWER, TOTALLY USELESS! My experience of Apple with one exception 7 years ago has been the polar opposite of yours
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 08:39 | 9th Post |
| Steve, Check your PM's...
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 09:04 | 10th Post |
Doug wrote:That trick really doesn't work, since the staff still get paid and you just end up wasting a couple of hours of your own time My experience of Apple with one exception 7 years ago has been the polar opposite of yours I would agree on your experience being the opposite of mine, and there is reason for this;...here in the UK customer service has gone right down the pan. Also, I'm from an age when serving customers meant something, so if I get mugged around I tend to get quite nasty. Trust me, wasting their time when they could be making commission does upset them, especially if you remind them of the fact. My position is; me customer, they serve. There's an additional factor in this however; obviously being in Australia you won't know Reading England, but I can assure you if there was a league of utterly useless UK towns Reading would be at the top of the list. What we've been finding for years now it has something to do with local education boundaries, for example go to Oxford and you really do notice a big difference in service standards compared to Reading. Same difference is noticed going east into Wokingham. Not to say any kids leaving school in the Reading area who go into shop work are thicko's, but we draw our own conclusions around here. "dunno, nah we aint got them, never erd of it mate, and even fk-off somewhere else then", are all too common attitudes from shop staff in these parts. I remember not so long ago going into Reading and asking for a slide rule, I should have had a DV camera to record the gormless look on faces. Went to Oxford and every shop assistant who didn't have any in stock still knew what I was talking about. Here's another recent example; going into Reading BMW mini dealership for a thermostat.....had to wait for the storeman and one of the mechanics to stop punching each other, and that was in the middle of the showroom! There's something in the fact that Oxford has Oxford university, and Wokingham area abuts Eaton's patch. Whatever....don't expect to go into Reading and as a consumer receive professional service, and that's aside from Apple's git policies. The way I see it, if I go into a shop and don't leave with a smile on my face, then the shop has got something badly wrong. MAC had an epic failure this morning. No, I will not be talking to robots, and no I will not be increasing my phone bill either, and no, I will not wait for this software. Though I might actually just wipe OSX altogether and install linux. My lad is currently downloading OSX SL, from 'somewhere'....had MAC not been such gits with the upgrade access we wouldn't be doing this, so the fact that there's a bit of piracy going on is entirely MAC's fault.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 14:57 | 11th Post |
steve of oxford wrote: More on my macbook....Steve, As a new Apple user you need to understand the culture and way the system works. As a new Apple customer I was similarly miffed the first time I visited the Apple Store in London as I expected to get to see someone who would fix my phone. Having to make an appointment when I had only that day in London was not possible. So I got my iphone fixed when I was in Exeter a week later. However I could book my appointment at a suitable time for me in Exeter Apple Store, there in the Apple Store in London.  You will find that if you follow the process then you will get excellent service of the highest quality from helpful and polite assistant who are knowledgeable about their products. BTW: The guy had to go to his appointment so needed to leave you otherwise he would be making two customers unhappy. The fact that there are so many happy Apple customers is because there is an appointment system where they can spend as much time as they need to to understand your problem then get it sorted. To get your problem resolved you can leave the computer with them to fix or upgrade and then make an appointment to pick up and test and they will once again spend time with you and explain what they have done. You may have been miffed not to be dealt with like you are in a shop but if you want that service then you can go to PCWorld and buy an Apple there. Unfortunately if anything goes wrong then they (PCWorld) have absolutely no idea how to fix it (the same if your Windows PC came from there!!). They are box shifters of the worst kind. All the Apple software is downloadable over the internet from the Apple Store. If you know what you want to do then all is available once you have an Apple Store account (email address and credit card details required). The system works beautifully (especially if you have a fast and reliable ADSL connection) with few if any glitches unless you want to buy stuff from outside of a country where your credit card is registered. This is due to the current obsession about money laundering, etc. and has nothing to do with Apple. If you need help then probably best to ask than be frustrated. There are many here who can help you.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 15:06 | 12th Post |
steve of oxford wrote: Doug wrote: I would agree on your experience being the opposite of mine, and there is reason for this;...here in the UK customer service has gone right down the pan. Also, I'm from an age when serving customers meant something, so if I get mugged around I tend to get quite nasty. Trust me, wasting their time when they could be making commission does upset them, especially if you remind them of the fact. My position is; me customer, they serve. There's an additional factor in this however; obviously being in Australia you won't know Reading England, but I can assure you if there was a league of utterly useless UK towns Reading would be at the top of the list. What we've been finding for years now it has something to do with local education boundaries, for example go to Oxford and you really do notice a big difference in service standards compared to Reading. Same difference is noticed going east into Wokingham. Not to say any kids leaving school in the Reading area who go into shop work are thicko's, but we draw our own conclusions around here. "dunno, nah we aint got them, never erd of it mate, and even fk-off somewhere else then", are all too common attitudes from shop staff in these parts. I remember not so long ago going into Reading and asking for a slide rule, I should have had a DV camera to record the gormless look on faces. Went to Oxford and every shop assistant who didn't have any in stock still knew what I was talking about. Here's another recent example; going into Reading BMW mini dealership for a thermostat.....had to wait for the storeman and one of the mechanics to stop punching each other, and that was in the middle of the showroom! There's something in the fact that Oxford has Oxford university, and Wokingham area abuts Eaton's patch. Whatever....don't expect to go into Reading and as a consumer receive professional service, and that's aside from Apple's git policies. The way I see it, if I go into a shop and don't leave with a smile on my face, then the shop has got something badly wrong. MAC had an epic failure this morning. No, I will not be talking to robots, and no I will not be increasing my phone bill either, and no, I will not wait for this software. Though I might actually just wipe OSX altogether and install linux. My lad is currently downloading OSX SL, from 'somewhere'....had MAC not been such gits with the upgrade access we wouldn't be doing this, so the fact that there's a bit of piracy going on is entirely MAC's fault. Well I can say that your experience in Reading is probably repeatable in many UK cities and towns. No wonder that standards are slipping when you have the dubious elite in glass towers in COL busy manipulating bank rates for their own greedy gain!! If I was you I would go to Oxford for my shopping and let the Reading mob go to the dogs!. Back on topic. See my previous post.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 15:10 | 13th Post |
Doug wrote: Getting billed twice, but not really getting stung since new versions of OSX once cost $130 (still half of windows cost) and now cost less than $100 even in the worst case described above and as little as $20 if your mac was running snow leopard (post August 2009) and you upgrade later than this month Apple OSX is very cheap. I bought my Snow Leopard disk for £15 (i think) and my Lion was £25 for the download. Not very convenient as I have a slow Spanish broadband connection. Windows7 upgrade was £79 or £212 new when I last looked.
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 18:22 | 14th Post |
| As a new Apple user you need to understand the culture Oh yeah, I understand it alright. RIP OFF The guy had to go to his appointment so needed to leave you otherwise he would be making two customers unhappy. It's a high street shop, not a doctor's surgery To get your problem resolved you can leave the computer with them to fix or upgrade last time i looked it didn't say mug punter across my forehead.....that guy in Reading Mac could have easily suggested I leave it with him for a couple of hours and he'd install from the shop copy. Instead, he rudely gave me the bums rush and that did it for me from that point on. All the Apple software is downloadable over the internet from the Apple Store. Not if you've got tiger it isn't. Well done MAC, brilliant idea there, make it as awkward as possible to upgrade. Welcome to special tools which you aint got give us lots of money philosophy. .....nice hardware, abysmal profit obsessed company to deal with. All in all a very unpleasant experience. No use to me, sorry.
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 18:24 | 15th Post |
| Steve, check your PM's or contact me please.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 18:44 | 16th Post |
Doug wrote: Btw, you must have approached a genius at the genius bar, was there no one else serving?Genius? the only thing distinguishing them there 'genii' from PC world primates was the colour of their jumpers.
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 18:46 | 17th Post |
Robert wrote: Steve, check your PM's or contact me please.Would if I could`find em. It's late and I've had enough.
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Jul 8th, 2012 19:08 | 18th Post |
steve of oxford wrote:Would if I could`find em. It's late and I've had enough. I understand, when you are ready. Should be around all day tomorrow.  From either the recent posts screen or click on the header, which should take you to the Home screen> There should be a green flashing spot, click on the messages and it should take you to your PM's.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by steve of oxford: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 01:40 | 19th Post |
Robert wrote:steve of oxford wrote: Thanks JK, but like I said it was late and I'd had enough. MBP now has Snow Leopard, all fully functional. Oh boy what a carry on. We had to prepare image on bootable USB. .....and all because the 'genius' couldn't be bothered to give us an install from the shop disc.
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 02:02 | 20th Post |
| Well, at least you are sorted Steve. In case anybody is wondering, now Apple's policy is not to include CD's with new computers and not to release OS's on DVD (although you CAN get it on a USB Thumb drive at great cost) how do you overcome the same issue as Steve encountered with current machines? Since Lion, 10.7.x the install includes a 'recovery section' on the hard drive in a small hidden partition. By starting the computer holding down the option (alt) key, which you can access the utility and recovery section. This only has a bare bones OS, it contains information about the computer and a mechanism to connect directly with the Apple servers so it can download the latest appropriate OS for that exact computer. It also has a utility section so you can carry out maintenance of the main OS partition such as repairing the partition, adding new partitions 'on the fly' and repairing permissions. When you go through the replace OS process it gives you some options but you end up with a new and most up to date OS which is appropriate for that computer. It isn't an upgrade path from Lion to Mountain Lion but it will (currently) give you the latest current version of Lion appropriate for that computer. So if the computer is a server it will load the server OS for example.
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| Posted by Doug: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 02:06 | 21st Post |
steve of oxford wrote:My lad is currently downloading OSX SL, from 'somewhere'....had MAC not been such gits with the upgrade access we wouldn't be doing this, so the fact that there's a bit of piracy going on is entirely MAC's fault. Since when was theft a legitimate form of protest/complaint? Still, at least you are fairly safe from the viruses that plague warez on the pc
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| Posted by jk: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 02:46 | 22nd Post |
| I find the current Apple stance about software distriution to be somewhat strange as i assumes that everyone has fast broadband connections. This may be true in sunny CA but not everywhere in the world. Customers should be able to purchase software on DVD/CD or USB drive at any store. I know this represents a large logistics problem for Apple but at the end of the day this would generate even 'bigger' profits. As the most profitable company in the world this may not be a priority now but it would increase customer satisfaction.
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| Posted by Doug: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 03:05 | 23rd Post |
jk wrote:I find the current Apple stance about software distriution to be somewhat strange as i assumes that everyone has fast broadband connections. It's strange that they are the only ones doing it since it allows them to drive the price downwards (30%+ of the price at retail is profit for that retailer, then a portion is for the wholesaler and presumably there should be some profit for Apple too) Despite this, Apple have managed to drive the price down for physical media and smash the price for downloaded versions It should be possible to get a Lion Upgrade (Snow Leopard Required) from any Apple store As of Mountain Lion things might change again, but I wouldn't be surprised (after a delay) to see Mountain Lion on USB too
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 03:15 | 24th Post |
| I have made three full recoveries from the Apple servers on my very slow, sub 1Mb connection, it was done overnight and took up to 12 hours. No doubt there are still places with even slower broadband and dial up, so Apple DO provide USB Thumb drives for just those cases.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 03:24 | 25th Post |
Doug wrote:
You should be able to clean install Lion without Snow Leopard being present, I have done it several times. Mountain Lion will clean install and go on top of Lion if needed. It is NOT a good idea to migrate any applications or utilities from Lion to ML, get fresh versions from the creators.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 03:47 | 26th Post |
Robert wrote:Doug wrote: Yes I can as well. I can do a full clean install from my homemade USB Lion installer.
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 13:05 | 27th Post |
| Interestingly, though I am now on Snow Leopard which is the current OS, I STILL don't have the Mac App feature. Therefore when that 'genius' said I could upgrade from Leopard to Lion, he was obviously trying to be some kind of funny man in the knowledge that MAC have gone disc-less. I have a feeling MAC are going to regret their latest act of corporate-ism. People will eventually get wise to buying a comp that you can't fix without kow towing to a stupid appointment system. (one can see where this is going; 'we won't talk to you unless you have bought or we can see your money) In summary of my own experience; nice hardware, arrogant company to deal with.
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| Posted by TomOC: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 13:53 | 28th Post |
| In USA (at least) Apple has notified all registered users of MobileMe that they can request a free upgrade and then download Lion for 29USD. If anyone lives near Steve who got this message, you might be able to pass him a Snow Leopard disc? Steve, I hear your anger, but in the long run we are all really well served by the login system for the genius bar - that store can get really crowded and it is nice to have an appointment so you know when you will be helped. Good luck, Tom
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 14:01 | 29th Post |
| Aha!.....just ran the updates, Mac App has magically appeared. You know the more I read input here the more convinced I am that guy in Reading Mac wasn't very helpful. In fact got quite a bit wrong. Wonder if they have commission tied into appointments, would explain a lot.
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 14:05 | 30th Post |
| Steve, there is a huge and fairly close community with the Mac, apart from a buddy I have who is a genius, and specialises in laptops, I have never dealt with one, since my first Mac in 1988. I have lost count of the Apple computers I have owned over that time, both new and used. If I need help with my computers I refer to one of my buddies or perhaps ask a question on the Apple Support Community (ASC) where there is a wealth of knowledge among users who give their time freely to help other users. There are some idiots too but that is one of the features of the internet and they can for the most part be ignored. https://discussions.apple.com/community/
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by steve of oxford: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 14:11 | 31st Post |
Doug wrote:steve of oxford wrote: Retrospectively, when was rudeness, being too damn useless to stock the flash drive upgrades and generally giving customers a bum steer ever a standard of service? Crap attitude = angry customers. As for the new OS, darned if we could get the upgrade to install from DVD, we had to burn to USB then it went in smooth as silk. Will eventually upgrade the hardware on this, more RAM, SSD, a nice contrasty red keypad + a few replacement aluminium case parts.
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| Posted by jk: Mon Jul 9th, 2012 19:18 | 32nd Post |
steve of oxford wrote:Aha!.....just ran the updates, Mac App has magically appeared. In all fairness when it is good or average it is excellent compared to every other company standard of service but like you say if you get a crap person they are just that and it reflects poorly on the company. I suggest that you steer well clear of Reading seems like it is still the same sort of place as 40 years ago when I went to school in that area. However I was fortunate in that I only went there to catch the train to London!
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Tue Jul 10th, 2012 12:55 | 33rd Post |
jk wrote:steve of oxford wrote: Too right. I've lived in this area for 40 years and have seen all the changes. Like I said before it has a lot to do with factors such as town hall officials hell bent on getting city status, so they can line themselves up for the fat one, which is why there's so much marble & pilkington, and the generally poor standard of education Reading is infamous for. Lol.....I remember years ago I went into Seargents who at that time were Myford agents. I was looking in the micrometer cabinet, and after not much time noticed all the staff had ran off and hidden themselves. That former world renowned engineering supplie business soon went into one of Reading's trading estates, sported a bright coloured plastic front, and sold grass seed. A month after that they went bust. Want a citation of which might be the most useless town in the UK?, it has to be Reading, no shop has EVER got what you want, car parks managed by crooks, shops staffed by thick headed monkeys absolutely lacking any understanding of customer service. ...and to cap it all, undoubtedly governed by THE most corrupt town hall in the land. Crap hole, simple as that.
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| Posted by TomOC: Tue Jul 10th, 2012 13:07 | 34th Post |
Doug wrote:jk wrote: Doug- That sort of got my back up when it was announced, too. But as time goes on, it seems not to matter here. USA doesn't have the fastest broadband in the world by a long stretch but it is becoming ubiquitous. And you can always go to a Starbucks or Apple store and use their broadband in a pinch. I really was skeptical when my wife ordered a MacBook Air - no dvd drive? Are you kidding? But that was a year ago and it hasn't been an issue yet. Worse case, i can scoot out to an Apple store and buy a super drive if the odd emergency every comes up (though I am increasing thinking that won't happen Apple doesn't consult us when the want to "lead" but so far they have made mostly good choices or changed. I have an external floppy disc drive in the basement somewhere that I kept "just in case."..... Cheers, Tom
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| Posted by blackfox: Tue Jul 10th, 2012 13:53 | 35th Post |
steve as a ex resident of reading i really do feel for you ,luckily i moved oop norf 27 years ago ,so i don't have to put up with that crap no longer . however your approaching the problem in totally the wrong manner for reading ,what you should be doing is hanging around (is it still the butts) shopping centre and looking for someone with white eyeballs standing in a doorway smoking something that smells funny ,approach this character or characters with caution then ask them very quietly if they can go shopping ?? for you and acquire the latest mac (give them the spec you want) agree to meet them in a hour and pay at least 200 smackers for it .job done and no upgrade problems 
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| Posted by jk: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 04:09 | 36th Post |
| I think that reading suffers from the Winnersh Triangle problem. All the clever boys and girls are in offices in the WT where all the high tech companies live or west of Reading at Theale or Swindon. So this leave the city centre shops to be staffed by the less good. I wont comment further as I'm sure that some of these peoe are equally good but have had lesser opportunites or inclination at the wrong tim in their life. Be generous to people if you want get the best from them! That doesnt mean give money but kindness of thought and action!
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| Posted by Iain: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 06:03 | 37th Post |
| I think you have been unlucky Steve. I have used the apple store a few times and always had good helpful and accurate service.
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 14:35 | 38th Post |
blackfox wrote:steve as a ex resident of reading i really do feel for you ,luckily i moved oop norf 27 years ago ,so i don't have to put up with that crap no longer . LOL that just about sums it up. Though personally I prefer a bit of dex amphetamine sulphate myself, kind of turbpcharges you, perfect for any confrontation. Ye it is still the Butts, though it has dropped a lot in rating since we now have the Oracle centre, which is where Mac is.
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 14:37 | 39th Post |
Iain wrote:I think you have been unlucky Steve. I have used the apple store a few times and always had good helpful and accurate service. We've concluded it is just useless Reading.
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 14:39 | 40th Post |
| I wont comment further as I'm sure that some of these people are equally good but have had lesser opportunites or inclination at the wrong tim in their life. Nah they're just bloody thick.
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| Posted by jk: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 17:02 | 41st Post |
steve of oxford wrote:Iain wrote: I think so.
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| Posted by blackfox: Thu Jul 12th, 2012 12:38 | 42nd Post |
careful now steve ,i lived in reading for 15 years ,some of those lowbred scum could be the fruit of my loins .
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| Posted by steve of oxford: Fri Jul 13th, 2012 07:49 | 43rd Post |
blackfox wrote:careful now steve ,i lived in reading for 15 years ,some of those lowbred scum could be the fruit of my loins . You should have had:......two large blocks of wood......place nads on block A and strike with block B. That would have sorted it.
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