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| Will DX ever match FX ....or be good enough for most of us? A ramble on a lazy morning. | Rating: 
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| Posted by Eric: Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 08:36 | 1st Post |
| Not having any work to do today; with the rain preventing me from the autumn tree pruning and the total apathy stopping me from the next decorating project indoors....I am sitting with a mug of coffee and cogitating. Join me, if you will! When digital started we only had DX. The gold standard we sought to attain was 35mm film ...ieFX. The D300 (arguably for some people) just about achieved 35mm film quality. The D3 (IMHO) did/does attain and even exceed film in many situation. I believe the new range of DX bodies also now match or better film. But as the bar is lifted ....do DX cameras approach ever closer FX quality when comparing crops? Is the gap narrowing? Are we yet at a stage where we might conceivable forget FX (apart from the wider angle advantage) and take the unquestionable lens advantage of 1.5x focal length multiplication ? My reasons for raising this are twofold... Firstly the thread about the new 58mm and Toms point about it really only being a 'portrait' lens for DX. This focal length was always a compromise for me. Supposedly closest to our eye's perspective on things....but without the versatility of our eyes, that automatically 'take in' peripheral detail to enhance or concentrate the 'impression'. In short, we NEED wider and longer lenses to attempt to deliver what the eye 'sees'...or at least add extra dynamism to our shots. So I am not sure I would buy this lens to specifically use on an FX body...it's the wrong focal length for my photography... but for DX it's another matter. The second point relates to the image quality I have seen on the Fuji XE1. Despite being a DX sensor, it matches my D3 with its pro lenses most of the time and betters the D7000 with its prosumer lenses. (not done the latter comparison with pro lenses) Clearly, THIS DX camera matches the FX of 'yesterday'....which bettered 35mm film! But is this good enough? So ....are we at a point where further advancement lifts the image quality into the medium format equivalent domain? The significance of this thought is that few amateur photographers opted for medium format in the film days. (even fewer worked in plate sizes) These were the realm of serious professionals and obsessive amateurs. (yes I had one LOL) A feature of using these larger formats was the need for greater precision...given their narrower dof, greater bulk and fewer shots in the back. Similarly it seems that the increased pixel sensors also require greater precision in technique to capitalise on their IQ. When this ATD happens they probably approach or better medium format film. So it goes on. With all this in mind, I wonder if the D400 when it arrives WILL be the perfect camera for the huge majority of mainstream users. The quality standard comparable to old FX....without the hassle of precise technique. Will it be the point where the majority of us say...this is good enough for me? When I got the D3...that's what I felt. The D300 wasnt as good ..but I did believe that it was nearly 'there'...sufficiently ahead of its time to become a classic and possibly not be replaced! The 6years it has been top of the DX tree may well be coming to an end...we shall see. But if Nikon get the specification 'right', it could change me back from an FX to a DX user, fullstop. The reality of diminishing returns starts to play a bigger part. Ramble and coffee break over. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 09:13 | 2nd Post |
| Well the sun is out. But clouds are in the sky. I have a sore throat provided by someone who visited UK in the last week so I am also sitting with a mug of coffee contemplating.... Your post. Yes my D1 was a wonderful 2.74MP wonder that forced me to learn more about Photoshop. Was it really nearly 15 years ago (june 1999). The D300 that I still have and use underwater to replace the old D70. Yes it worked well but getting a D3 spoilt me. The D300 is not a DX version of the D3. We still await the unicorn or D400 that hopefully will fix that but in reality Nikon have not really stepped up to deliver for DX. I say this because..... Where is the 10mm f2.8 rectilinear for DX. There is a semi-fisheye but no rectilinear. The nearest is a Sigma 10-20mm f4. Agree with you about the Fuji XE1 equalling the D3 for image quality. There will be a Fuji 10-24mm released in December. Also there is now an XE2 with improved focusing, wifi and some other small updates that was released two days ago. I have a D800 and D600 that I use for critical work where I need more pixels. So for landscapes, product shots, architecture (not very often) but these tend to be my personal shots or paid for assignments. The D600 at 24MP is better than the D3S and D3 that I use for my flamenco shoots but I dont need 24MP for this. Yes I use the D600 for wide-angle shots but I dont need it for my telephotos shots. The D800 at 36MP is really a MF camera in a mini skirt. Sexy beast she is but really except for landscapes and fine art photos it is too good for me. So I do think that Nikon need to release the 18/24MP camera that is the D300 replacement or D400. DX or FX is a personal choice but it is really more driven by what the cameras can yield in image quality. So if you have FX glass the you tend towards FX cameras. Fuji have proven that small, light, high quality cameras with fantastic glass on DX cameras are possible and usable by professionals working in areas where high quality image output is required e.g. Weddings, portraits, etc.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 09:41 | 3rd Post |
| 2nd cup of coffee in hand or actually on table. OK so now to the rumour mill. Rumour has it that Nikon have not released a D400 because the returns in the current market are not good enough to do this and instead they have concentrated the DX team on producing an exchangeable sensor camera not sure if this would be DX or FX or both but logic says either. This camera may be mirrorless, OMG, we are at a pivot point that i said would come in 2017, not 2014. We dont need mirrors if EVF (Electronic View Finder) is fast enough refresh rate and has enough pixels. The Fuji EX1 that I have and use, says yes to me we are nearly there! Maybe Sony have it right with their new A7 camera?
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 10:22 | 4th Post |
| Eric, Some more rambling, although the sun is out... Thinking from different perspectives: -A DX camera will be cheaper to make. -Some people may be satisfied with the tunnel-like DX viewfinders. -I still think FX is basically better (bigger viewfinder and signal/noise) compared to any equivalent DX camera. So: -DX may have a furure for budget cameras -FX is better, in many ways, but price -You may be right, the D300(s) may be the last Nikon Pro-grade DX camera. Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by Iain: Wed Oct 23rd, 2013 10:47 | 5th Post |
| I think that both Nikon and Canon are dragging there heals with the D300 and the 7D, is this because they are now wanting to make a buffer between DX and fx, who knows. Fuji has a cracking sensor in there cameras now but they are not Nikon or Canon. I think that if nothing in announced by spring 2014 as far as top of the range crop cameras, I think that will be it.
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| Posted by Eric: Wed Oct 23rd, 2013 13:57 | 6th Post |
Iain wrote:I think that both Nikon and Canon are dragging there heals with the D300 and the 7D, is this because they are now wanting to make a buffer between DX and fx, who knows. Well I was quite vocal a few years back about the D300 being the last of the pro Dx bodies. But even I would be surprised if that really came about. I confess I imagined another body coming along after a period....if only to update again. 6years is a long time digitally speaking. There is a place in the market for a high spec DX body. But it may rob too many sales from the FX models. Maybe that's why there is a delay? As some people have mentioned before on the forum, what we see in the market place is some years behind the technology which Nikon et al have in hand ...and only meter out to us as they see fit. Only major competition issues like the high noise problem with D2 series bodies and the major customer drift to Canon caused them to release a quantum step...the D3. Can't help thinking there is a lot of gamesmanship going on between the big players....playing cards close to their chest and only metering out the technology to suit them.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by amazing50: Thu Oct 24th, 2013 15:41 | 7th Post |
| Nikon has 18 Digital SLR Cameras in their curent lineup, starting with the D3000. http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/ They have a backlog of older models that have to be sold off, but with the slump in sales, are still hanging around. DX sales are about 80% of the digital SLR market and with the D5xxx being their best sellers.
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by jk: Thu Oct 24th, 2013 15:52 | 8th Post |
amazing50 wrote:Nikon has 18 Digital SLR Cameras in their curent lineup, starting with the D3000. http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/ Well that is a ridiculous number of DX camera to maintain as current. They really to rationalise by reducing units ofold models in the marketplace. The modern DSLR cameras are all very good so it only confuses customers by having so much choice.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by amazing50: Fri Oct 25th, 2013 10:04 | 9th Post |
| It will be interesting to see what deals Nikon comes up with for the holiday season.
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by blackfox: Fri Oct 25th, 2013 12:13 | 10th Post |
| its called marketing strategy ,you can bet your last pound that both canon and nikon already have the cameras we want ,but will keep feeding us a little nibble of cheese every six months or so to keep us happy and interested .whether that technology actually works or not and is inter compatible with older type lenses etc will be the answer . i feel that my d7100 might have been fine had i been able to invest in a state of the art lens to go with it i.e the new 80-400 vr ,just a gut feeling ,my lad for instance has a canon 300mm f2.8 mkii lens and two mkiii tele convertors a 1.4x and a 2.0x ,none of his shots have been RIGHT for a better word on older camera bodies i.e more than 2 years old ,and he was on the verge of selling the lenses thinking it was faulty . he has now got the new 70d and the combo is a perfect match new generation lens + new generation t.c's + new generation camera .all working perfectly together . so don't wish to hard you might find you need DEEEEEEEEEEEEP pockets
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| Posted by jk: Fri Oct 25th, 2013 13:46 | 11th Post |
| I tend to agree with you in that if you want super sharp images with the latest cameras you need to invest in the latest lenses UNLESS you want to MF. In this case you wont be using the cameras for sports, wildlife or any action photos. Some can get away with this e.g. macro, (some) portrait, landscape and still life photographers. However this is pretty galling when you have spent a fortune on the latest super duper new camera.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Fri Oct 25th, 2013 14:24 | 12th Post |
blackfox wrote:so don't wish to hard you might find you need DEEEEEEEEEEEEP pockets Over the many years I have followed this forum that has always been the case, there is NO cheap route to up to date top performing long lens photography.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Ed Matusik: Fri Oct 25th, 2013 15:34 | 13th Post |
Robert wrote:blackfox wrote: Amen brother Robert. If you want it - you gotta pay the man.
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| Posted by amazing50: Sun Oct 27th, 2013 12:07 | 14th Post |
| As I and others are finding out, besides the expensive glass, more effort has to be put into taking the photo,if you want a super sharp image. Mirror up, tripod, VR off, highest quality filters, optimal shutter speed and exact focus all contribute to the maximization of the cameras capabilities.
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by Eric: Sun Oct 27th, 2013 13:42 | 15th Post |
amazing50 wrote:As I and others are finding out, besides the expensive glass, more effort has to be put into taking the photo,if you want a super sharp image. Mirror up, tripod, VR off, highest quality filters, optimal shutter speed and exact focus all contribute to the maximization of the cameras capabilities. Beginning to think it would be easier to pay someone to take my photos for me. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sat Nov 2nd, 2013 19:36 | 16th Post |
| I missed all this I was in France on holiday but have now read it all with interest. I do miss my D300 and wish now I had not let it go when I got the D800. There are times when the FX camera and it's large heavy lenses is too much when on holiday and not taking professional pix. I have just got a as new 2nd hand Nikon V1 for £220 and am taking to Morocco for a short weeks holiday and want to record the event but at same time travel light. I will report back later but my need on this holiday are good quality snaps and this little camera is at least as good as our first early friend the D1!
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sat Nov 2nd, 2013 19:47 | 17th Post |
| PS we stayed at this great little town of Combourg just North of Rennes. Picture D800 with 24-120mm AF-S f4 lens. Attachment: Combourg.jpg (Downloaded 23 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| This is topic ID = 739 | ||
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