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Eric
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I thought it would be better to restart this thread rather than adding it to the already meandering threads on similar subjects. To this end I have copied the first post I made on this subject here...... The EX1 a significant improvement over the X100 in terms of start up and the focus/shutter lag. They have also guarded the ex comp button that so easily got knocked on the X100. Have yet to check battery life. There is a stonking good quick access key that gets you to key parameters (eg ISO) on one button. Seriously good improvement. The rear rocker switch is much much better. I am not a great fan of the EVF...it is clearer and more detailed than the one on the X100... but not massively better. I still feel an OVF wins the day. One of the side effects of the EVF is that because younare reading off the sensor there is a hesitation/ jump effect when zooming. You see the sensor refresh. The other slight negative (on this version) is the stiffness of the zoom. Speaking with JK his zoom is apparently ok. Mine has a nice smooth action...it's just a tad stiff. What I have discovered is, it's really due to the lack of 'counterbalance' from a lighter body. Not sure it's the right terminology but ...the inertia of the zoom lens would be fine on a more solid in the hand DSLR body...with the EX you have to grip the body more and use more effort to resist the rotation. If that makes sense? Of course not a problem with their primes. I have been out with it today but only for a few minutes (bl**dy customers wanted some work doing just as the sun came out....inconsiderate swines!) Haven't looked at the results yet. Will post some detail later this week. At this stage I feel it's ergonomically a major step forward. But I suspect the X100S will share some of these improvements. Too early to say whether it will totally woo me away from a DSLR for walkaround. There is no doubt having this combo round the neck is much better. But the handling of the body is always going to a bit alien for someone weaned on the DSLR ...which has after all been honed to its ergonomic ideal shape over many years. Personally I don't see this as the way forward for long tele use. My take on that is...for large magnification you need stability. If you haven't got VR you need a tripod or monopod. If you are carrying long, heavy lenses and a tripod...you might as well carry a DSLR as well. The extra weight over the mirrorless system isn't that relevant when doing specialised shooting. The only counter to this might be the Nikon V1 with its 2.7x magnification. This economic tele boast might justify its use over even the dX bodies. Which leads me back to a question I would dearly like answering.... How good is a D800 crop? Would a D800 cropped to a DX sensor size be better? My guess is yes! But ...would a D800 cropped to the V1 (2.7x) sensor size be as good? The D800 needs good technique and stability to max its IQ. But under conditions of tele work (ie solid support ) it would get that. I could easily see a Fuji Ex and D800 combination covering all my needs. My first shots were not in ideal situations for real comparisons...lots of grabshots. I have learnt that unlike DSLRs you do need to wait that bit longer after the shutter noise...to make sure its 'finished'. Several shots were blurred because I treated it like my DSLRs!!!!!  I will put some shots in my gallery out of interest....> EX Gallery But I still need to do a meaningful comparison with the D7000 IQ. I do believe that to get the most out of these 'different' cameras we need to break the traditions and habits gained over years using DSLR bodies. I was however concerned about the lack of detail in this face! Attachment: barefaced.jpg (Downloaded 81 times) |
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jk
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Thanks for the first report Eric. I'll be interested to see if it grows on you. The X100s is just released so it is an unknown but looks like a new set of technology is coming from Fuji. The next question is would a XPro1 suit you better as that has an OVF. |
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TomOC
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Good review, Eric. I strongly agree with the attitude about long lenses on any small camera - wrong concept - as you say, drag out the tripod and the D800 and do the job right ! I was out all morning with my ex and a leica elmarit 28mm on it (this is smaller than the fuji 18mm and the lens shade is smaller, too) - it fits in my jacket (not cargo pants just fine, so I like that about it.I don't think it handles as well as the xp1 but most of that is because there is not a Thumbs Up available for it yet - that is coming. After using this for nearly a month now, I would say that the only thing it has going for it over the xp1 is size - and only marginally. In fact without the Thumbs Up on it, the smaller size may well be a drawback - handling becomes fumbling on occasion. Also the ergonomics are better on the xp1, especially the placement of the Playback button. I tend to take the fuji's out with only one prime lens. Just like the long lens+tripod scenario, I want total simplicity from these cameras...and since the x100s will cost about half the price of an inexpensive Leica lens, I will definitely be getting one of them .The really killer design will be the xp1 with all the features of the x100s for manual focusing... Probably no chance of seeing that in 2013 though, so off I go with what I have now ... And very happily I must say.IQ on all three of these cameras is outstanding IMHO! |
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richw
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I think we have now reached an era where in any camera we might consider IQ is a given and other factors such as speed and accuracy of focus, form factor and lens selection are going to be the deciding factors on what we choose to use. Not quite ready to retire the D3s yet, but it could happen in the future. |
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jk
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Interesting thought Rich. I still think my D3 and D3s work well. The D800 is at times a bit OTT. I do think the XPro1 does throw a new perspective on ones needs. |
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Squarerigger
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Thanks for splitting this off from the other topic Eric. Everything I read on these "types" of cameras points to one having to divorce ones self from some of our habits while using SLR/DSLR's for most of our lives. That's not uncommon when one switches from using one tool to another tool which is used for the same type of application. Kind of a creature of habit I suppose. |
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jk
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Squarerigger wrote: Everything I read on these "types" of cameras points to one having to divorce ones self from some of our habits while using SLR/DSLR's for most of our lives.The adjustment isnt that great but like Eric has mentioned you need to be aware to take a little longer before and after your shot. The biggest adjustment I found that I had to make was to slow myself down so that I made sure that I had what I wanted focussed was actually in focus. The AF is slower than a DSLR so you need to slow a bit and actually work a little more carefully. |
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jk
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As a test today I got out my Kipon adapter for my Fuji/Nikon lenses. This allows the attachment of Nikon lenses onto the Fuji XPro1 and EX1. Obviously you need to adjust aperture and focus and zoom manually. I used the Nikon 70-300 f4.5-5.6 AFS G lens. This worked much better than I'd expected. One issue is that you dont know your f stop as it is a G lens. Even though I was working in full sunlight there was some need to up the ISO so I could make sure that shake was not and issue. This lens on the XPro1 is a 100-450mm zoom. Very nice for travel and since the camera is so light it makes for a very light carry around with the 18-55 as the extra lens. I still have to check out the images that I took as they were all close ups and not bird or distance animal shots. MF focussing with the EVF on the XPro1 was not easy to judge exact point of sharp focus as teh EVF really needs more detail. Maybe this will be better on the XE-1 which has a better EVF. Images here in this album. http://nikondslr.uk/photos/showgallery.php?cat=575 These images are straight out of Lightroom without any extra sharpening. |
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Eric
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jk wrote: Squarerigger wrote:I think thats a good point JK.Everything I read on these "types" of cameras points to one having to divorce ones self from some of our habits while using SLR/DSLR's for most of our lives.The adjustment isnt that great but like Eric has mentioned you need to be aware to take a little longer before and after your shot. I remember Ansel Adams saying that the biggest obstacle to getting sharp images from 35mm cameras (compared to plate cameras) was the "speed and ease of use". I believe that is also true when we 1) use a DSLR with higher pixel density (eg D3x, D800) and 2) use a lighter, 'less ergonomic' camera body (eg Fuji X and other 'bars of soap'). The stability of the camera in the hand plays a greater role in getting sharp images. When I moved to the D2X from the D1X I found shooting the same settings initially yielded inferior results. I had to up the ISO and/or reduced the shutter speed by a stop to get comparable results. In other words....my stability was worse with the 12mp sensor than the 6mp predecessor. Because of this, I have already learnt to run the somewhat blocky Fujis at one stop higher default ISO than normal and choose slightly faster than traditional exposure speeds in an attempt to offset the likelihood of less camera stability in the hand. Rich W posted a statement to the effect that, most modern cameras are ALL of such IQ level, that we must now use other characteristic as the key selection parameters. I think that is very true! HOW WE ARE ABLE TO use the camera is a significant factor when moving away from mainstream DSLRs. |
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TomOC
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I definitely agree with the comments on slowing down. One way to drive that home is to use the manual settings. I find that my eyesite, even with a diopter isn't quite good enough in many lighting conditions to just "focus" manually - I really need the zoom up to focus correctly. Now, maybe that comes from years of using Nikon zooms and zooming to focus or maybe it is just that I am rusty at manual focusing. I'm going to try to figure that out over the next few weeks by focusing first and then zooming to see if I was accurate Probably will be quite humbling, at least at first. |
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Eric
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I have often found that a lens focused at one end of its range isnt necessariloy in focus aTomOC wrote: I definitely agree with the comments on slowing down.I have often found that a zoom focused at one end of its range doesnt necessarily hold the same focus at the other. Maybe thats using cheap lenses.  Although I experienced this issue when using the onboard focus adjustment feature as well. You can get one end of the zoom perfect...then loose the other. I ended up setting at a happy medium between the two. |
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jk
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Most zooms do not hold focus as either end of the zoom range. To do so they have to be specifically designed to achieve this and are called 'parfocal' zooms. Like Tom says with AF this tends to manage the focus so it doesnt matter. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Most zooms do not hold focus as either end of the zoom range. To do so they have to be specifically designed to achieve this and are called 'parfocal' zooms. I thought Tom was trying to manual focus using this technique? |
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jk
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Eric wrote:jk wrote: Yes he was . What I was trying to say is that he was attempting to do wont work unless the has a parfocal zoom lens. |
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Squarerigger
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It's ashamed Steve is no longer active on the forum, I could ask him to have Dylan make a new emotion. One with a shocked face and the subject matter just flying over my head. Parafocal and the like.  |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric wrote: Understand. |
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Eric
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Squarerigger wrote:It's ashamed Steve is no longer active on the forum, I could ask him to have Dylan make a new emotion. One with a shocked face and the subject matter just flying over my head. It's the opposite of a Varifocal lens....as in Varifocal spectacles. |
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jk
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For Gary. Better than an emoticon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parfocal_lens Should have put the reference link before. |
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Eric
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Squarerigger wrote:It's ashamed Steve is no longer active on the forum, I could ask him to have Dylan make a new emotion. One with a shocked face and the subject matter just flying over my head. Perhaps this one would do..... :wtf: |
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Constable
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Jk What are you using for xp1 raw conversion? I see over on the fuji forum that you seem to be recommending silkypix Ed |
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jk
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Those images were from LR4.3 as I wanted a quick comparison with earlier attempts. I now have the latest unreleased version of Capture Pro (7.0.2) which does XPro1 and XE1 RAW conversion and is better than and as good as SilkyPix. SilkyPix is slow but good the new CP7.0.2 is good and faster and certainly the equal of LR4.3 for workflow but with better handling of the new Fuji X series sensors. I use LR for quick and dirty as I use it for my cataloguing. |
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Constable
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Unfortunately the 7.0.2. software is no longer available for beta .. i guess it is LR until 7.0.2. is released. |
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Eric
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TomOC wrote:Good review, Eric. I've discovered one irritation regarding the position of the Ae/AL button. Being right under the thumb it's quite easy to depress...thereby locking exposure or focus erroneously. I suspect a Thumbs up could have the added advantage of lifting the thumb out of the way of it. Will have to wait until there is one available. |
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richw
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Form factor/ Ergonomics. I suspect this will be one of the most important decision points in the future over what we buy. |
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jk
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Constable wrote: Unfortunately the 7.0.2. software is no longer available for beta .. i guess it is LR until 7.0.2. is released. Do you have an XPro1/XE1 as well Ed?. Another one joins the Fuji club. If yes then PM me and I will Dropbox you a sample. |
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Eric
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richw wrote:Form factor/ Ergonomics. I suspect this will be one of the most important decision points in the future over what we buy. There is a slight irony in that. At a time when Internet sales are shutting down high street stores, the thing we need most is to 'feel' before we buy. I do wonder why designers put some buttons where they put them. :baffled: |
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jk
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3d Printing! Print your own sample of the camera. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1682938109/robo-3d-printer If you dont like the feel then recycle the plastic for another print (hopefully). |
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jk
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Constable wrote: Unfortunately the 7.0.2. software is no longer available for beta .. i guess it is LR until 7.0.2. is released. Capture Pro 7.0.2 will be released as final code on 14th January at 14:00 (CET). If you want to get a download of the new software it is on a 30 day trial as well so you dont need to buy before you try. I can definitely recommend CP7.0.2 over the Adobe products ACR7.3 or LR4.3 for the processing of Fuji XPro1 and XE1 RAW files. Since the demise of Bibble5 and its purchase by Corel there have been no RAW updates so I can only use that for my cameras that predate my D800. I will use Capture One as my main RAW processing software as it has similar capabilities to Bibble5. |
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jk
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CP7.0.2 now out as a final release. I am just downloading. |
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blackfox
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you lot have totally lost this O.A.P i put my card in the reader it opens up in apeture 3 ,i process it ,and finish off in elements ,whats with all the silly numbers cp702 .lr456 etc etc   |
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Robert
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JK is a little prone to acronyms, it saves him time, CP is Capture Pro, and lr is Lightroom. I suppose Aperture would come out as aa3? I hope you back them up too Jeff? Even to TM (Time Machine) would be better than nothing although TM isn't really a backup, it's a way of turning the clock back in case you delete something, or a file corrupts while saving. You can go back and restore it. You should also save the images to another drive, even if it's only a CD. |
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blackfox
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yes uncle robert  i only pretend to be fick ,got 3 external hard drives more than adequate for my needs :hi: |
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Robert
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That's OK then nephew! |
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jk
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blackfox wrote: yes uncle robert But are you making a backup of the backup ? Sorry about the TLAs.....  Three Letter Acronyms. |
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Robert
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jk wrote:blackfox wrote:yes uncle robert Perhaps even more important are you keeping a backup elsewhere. A fire or burglary could cause the loss of your data. I have my important stuff on HD's (Hard Drives) at two other locations. If you have the drives connected all the time and there were a lightning strike nearby that could destroy the data too. I lost a computer and HD that way, a Mac plus, back in about '93 I think. I got paid out on the computer by the insurance but nothing for the data. Most of it was on floppies then, so they were OK. |
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jk
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Go my XE1. Well it is different to the XPro1. It has some advantages and some missing items but no show stoppers. I can fortunately see a reason to keep both. The XE1 is more X100 sized but with all the advantages of the interchangeable lenses. I have the 18mm f2.0, 35mm f1.4, 60mm f2.4 and the new 18-55mm zoom to put on the XPro1 and the XE1. However I do want something wider but am not tempted by the new just out this week 14mm f2.8 lens as I want the 10-24mm zoom and the 55-200mm zooms when they arrive. In the mean time I will try to decide if I can manage without AF as I will be testing the cameras extensively when I go away in March to my birthplace in South America. I expect this will be a severe test of equipment and I will be taking the XPro1 and XE1 with Fuji 18-55mm and 60mm f2.4 with the Kipon adapter with my Nikon 70-300 AFS VR lens to give me extra reach. |
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jk
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I can say that I am very happy with my XE1 and it with the XPro1 will be going with me to South America next month. I have only one gripe which is with the 18-55mm lens which has a IR hotspot so I have to tune that out in Photoshop when I do my IR shots. However in the normal light range the 18-55 performs admirably and will no doubt be the lens that gets used most on my trip. |
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Constable
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Why not the 14mm Jonathon? I'm just taking the pro and 18 mm with me to South Africa at the weekend Ed |
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jk
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Dont want the 14mm as there is a 10-24mm zoom coming late this year. That will be perfect for me. Unfortunately the 55-200 zoom wont be available for purchase until April /May which is a month or so too late for me to take on my trip. |
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jk
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Been playing with the various options on the XE1 and its autofocus capabilities. There is an AF mode called AF-C. This is not like the AF-C on the Nikon as it only provides a central crosshair which you place on the object of desired focus and then you half press the shutter (and keep it half pressed) before recomposing and then shooting by full pressure on the shutte release. This provides very rapid and accurate AF. I need to test on XPro1 as well but it should behave the same. These cameras really have been significantly improved since release by the firmware upgrades. |
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Squarerigger
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So Eric, now that you have had the Fuji Ex1 for awhile, what is you opinion of the system? |
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Eric
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Squarerigger wrote:So Eric, now that you have had the Fuji Ex1 for awhile, what is you opinion of the system? This sounds quite ridiculous...but apart from the initial tests I haven't picked it up! I've been doing some serious home refurbishment projects that have totally occupied me for the last 6 weeks. So I haven't picked up any camera ...apart for commercial jobs. But the current wave of interior redesigns have been completed ....at least till July...and phase 2! I have some outings planned in April when I hope to shake down the camera, in advance of our holiday travels. |
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Squarerigger
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Eric wrote:Squarerigger wrote: Much more self control than I could have mustered! |
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Eric
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Squarerigger wrote:Eric wrote: Needs must. Had to get the work done before Easter while juggling paying work! Plenty of time to play with cameras over next few months. |
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Eric
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I have learnt one useful feature that you get with the EVF...when using exp.comp (eg for backlit subjects) you SEE the compensation effect on the image....live. This can take the guesswork out of setting +1...+1.5 or whatever when shooting against bright skies and sun. The camera isnt for grabshots tbough. It goes to sleep to save battery. By the time it wakes up, the shot has gone. Its shutter lag is also more than a dslr...i missed some action shots decisive moments despite using some predictive technique. Using afs wouldnt help. ..i dont think. But i will give it a go to see if the buffering is quick enough. All in all its a nice camera for casual no pressure shooting. ....but not in dslr league for quick use..imho. |
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Eric
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After 2 weeks using the XE1 exclusively, I have come to the conclusion that there are 2 issues that figure significantly. .......Battery life and view screen size. I twice discovered the battery was prematurely ( IMO) flat causing me to lose shots. And when switching to the D200 for IR it was like.... looking through patio doors compared to a porthole! While the image quality is undeniable, the trade off for lightweight portability may be too bitter a pill to swallow. I will persevere over the next few weeks ....but something, again, is pulling me to the D7000 sitting alongside the D200 in the rucksack. When showing the viewfinder difference to my wife....even she said the D200, felt like a 'real' camera. Haven't got the capability to edit images for posting while away ....but will post some on my return. |
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jk
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Eric, For us coming from Nikon we need to be careful. Re the autofocus. M is NOT Manual but assisted AF and some manual focus. C is NOT continuous but Crosshair and is the best mode to shoot for getting rapid focus. There is no concept of Continuous AF in the camera even though at times it seems to work that way!! S is NOT Single but area with single capture of that area that you can move around. Oh the delights of the Fuji designer's mind. |
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jk
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Eric wrote: After 2 weeks using the XE1 exclusively, I have come to the conclusion that there are 2 issues that figure significantly.Agree with you. I usually carry two spare batteries for each X series camera. I carry one for each Nikon as a habit anyway. The EVF is better in the XE1 than the XPro1 but there is OVF in the XPro1 which is missing in the XE1. Compromises! I refer the larger but not a lot heavier XPro1 to the XE1 but the XE1 is so much smaller physically it is another difficult compromise. |
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Eric
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I am currently going cold turkey with the EX1. Having bought the 55-200 lens to go with then 18-55 I already had, I have ONLY taken them on my current holiday trip. That's a little lie, because I also have the IR camera and lens in the car. But the colour it's just the EX1. Having added the thumbs up (or a cheap chimese version) and the ridiculously expensive bigger grip, the camera feels a lot better in the hand. Despite more practise with it, I still feel its too slow for grab shots. Today I missed a peach of a shot as a tourist peered inches away from a long nosed statue to read the small inscription. It just missed the critical moment, thinking about taking the shot. Same with a hummingbird moth on a flower head today.....nice shot of a deserted flower! But it can capture staggeringly good quality images. As good as a D3 even at 3200! What is happening though, is it is changing or should I say compromising my way of shooting. When out and about I often 'see' images that have only a moment to capture. Knowing the XEs limitations I am starting not to bother with these opportunities and opting for static subjects.....which is a shame. It's a dilemma. Brilliant camera, that I can enjoy using ...but not responsive enough to take over from DSLRs in some situations. And yet again I ask myself if it's worth carrying along something that handles only 80-90% of your needs? |
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jk
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Need to use the AFC mode as that provides faster focus capability but only at the point where the cross + is located. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Need to use the AFC mode as that provides faster focus capability but only at the point where the cross + is located. I am doing...still doesn't match a DSLR for response. |
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jk
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Eric wrote: jk wrote:Yep that is definitely the case. The AF in a DSLR is much better. |
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amazing50
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jk: It would be interesting to see what a shot on your D600 with say a 200mm at f5.6 lens cropped to the same size as a full frame shot taken with your Fuji which would be 560mm f5.6 equivalent. |
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jk
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amazing50 wrote: jk: It would be interesting to see what a shot on your D600 with say a 200mm at f5.6 lens cropped to the same size as a full frame shot taken with your Fuji which would be 560mm f5.6 equivalent.When I get back go Spain (later this month or in October) I will do a straight comparison. The Fuji is APS-C (DX) so it is only a x1.5 multiplier compared to a FX camera. D600 with 300mm lens, and XPro1 with 55-200. I'll also do a near equivalence so a D600 with 200mm and then cropped up to 300mm view so this will yield a near similar angle of view and MP equivalence. D600 (24MP) v. XPro1 (16MP). |
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Eric
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jk wrote:amazing50 wrote:jk: It would be interesting to see what a shot on your D600 with say a 200mm at f5.6 lens cropped to the same size as a full frame shot taken with your Fuji which would be 560mm f5.6 equivalent.When I get back go Spain (later this month or in October) I will do a straight comparison. Interestingly... The 55-200 paperwork says it is the equivalent of 84-305. So ... unlike Nikon DX lenses, Fuji haven't corrected their lenses for the multiplication factor. They are effectively FX lenses? |
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jk
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Eric wrote: jk wrote:No the Fuji lenses wont cover a FX format. The lenses are designed specifically for the X series cameras and wouldnt focus accurately on a FX camera. The focus point is (I think) on 14-19mm behind the lens |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric wrote:jk wrote:No the Fuji lenses wont cover a FX format. But we are back to the old chestnut. How can a 55-200 be 'equivalent' to an 84-305 ...unless the magnification factor is being applied? Never get my head round this assertion. A DX lens on a DX body has exactly the same field of view as the same focal lens as an Fx lens on an Fx body. Only when an FX lens is used on a DX body is there any relevance to a 35mm equivalent statement. I have not however compared the field of view on the Fuji to the above mentioned scenarios. But I feel the 18mm of the 18-55 isnt as wide as the 18-105 DX on my D7000. Hence my view the Fuji isn't corrected. Need to check. |
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amazing50
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I thought the magnification factor was 2.7 x. It must be for a different camera. |
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jk
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amazing50 wrote: I thought the magnification factor was 2.7 x. It must be for a different camera.That is with the Nikon 1 series of cameras. They have a x2.7 focal length multiplier effect. |
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jk
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Eric wrote: jk wrote:No an 18mm on the Fuji whether it is a Nikon or a Fuji lens should give the same field of view as a 18mm on a DX but that lens placed on a FX camera (presuming it is a lens that covers a full frame camera sensor will provide a wider field of view. I have a very nice diagram somewhere that explains this I will try to dig out later today when I have done my other jobs for this morning/afternoon. |
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jk
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Eric wrote: I have learnt one useful feature that you get with the EVF...when using exp.comp (eg for backlit subjects) you SEE the compensation effect on the image....live. This can take the guesswork out of setting +1...+1.5 or whatever when shooting against bright skies and sun.Yes this is very useful and is one of the reasons why the Fuji cameras are slower to use than a Nikon as the Nikon doesnt do this unless you use the Preview function The Fuji does it every time you half-press the shutter when in EVF mode. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric wrote:jk wrote:No an 18mm on the Fuji whether it is a Nikon or a Fuji lens should give the same field of view as a 18mm on a DX but that lens placed on a FX camera (presuming it is a lens that covers a full frame camera sensor will provide a wider field of view. Sorry Jonathan...my head was filled with holiday fizz for a moment. I am back now and yes I agree. The Fuji has the same field of view as the D7000 with a DXlens at the same focal length. I was forgetting my D200IR is a Dx body with an FX lens on it and the narrower field of view was confusing me for a moment. And yes...compared to an FX body and FX lens the Fuji is 1.5x magnification. Meds now working. |
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jk
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LOL Eric, as you say. Just the fizz from those French wines that gets to you. For those interested this is a good article that explains the differences. http://www.the-dslr-photographer.com/2011/09/nikon-dx-and-fx-sensors-explained/ |
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