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| Moderated by: chrisbet, | ||
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jk
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OK, It has arrived. https://www.dpreview.com/news/9956913841/nikon-announces-z9-professional-mirrorless-camera https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/products/category_pages/digital_cameras/mirrorless/overview.page 46MP. So basically an upgrade to the Z7 and D850 with more professional features and better video if you want it. |
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jk
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In addition to the camera there are two new lenses 24-120mm f4 and 100-400mm f4.5-5.6. https://www.dpreview.com/news/6063825367/nikon-announces-nikkor-z-24-120mm-f4-s-for-z-mount-mirrorless-cameras https://www.dpreview.com/news/6354738892/nikon-announces-nikkor-z-100-400mm-f4-5-5-6-vr-s-telephoto-zoom There is also a smaller FTZii adapter. https://www.dpreview.com/news/8691092252/nikon-announces-new-ftz-ii-a-smaller-version-of-its-f-mount-to-z-adapter |
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Iain
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Can't say it excites me. No weight saving as such. I think if I had the money it would be a D6 for me. |
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Eric
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It was bound to happen once Canon and Sony released their versions. I doubt there will be much difference in performance with the three big players in the final reckoning. I've no intention of switching again! The sophistication on board these models is astounding. Trouble isI personally don't use a fraction of it. They are getting a bit like Photoshop in this way. I think I am more likely to ditch the lot and use an iPhone  |
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Iain
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Eric wrote:It was bound to happen once Canon and Sony released their versions.As they say “the best camera is the one you have with youâ€. |
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jk
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If they brought out a ZFc that was FF, rather than APS-C then I would be more interested. The ZFc is very much like a Fuji mirrorless camera. |
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GeoffR
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Iain wrote:Can't say it excites me. No weight saving as such. I think if I had the money it would be a D6 for me.Me too. The Z9 is actually 160g HEAVIER than a D4 based on what I have read so far. Replacing two D4 bodies, 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 with the mirrorless equivalents would increase the weight by 75g. I would also need to buy a new computer to cope with the increased file sizes. Net benefit, for me zero. I can get two used D5 bodies for less than the cost of a single Z9. Somebody please remind me again of the benefits of mirrorless technology. |
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jk
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WYSIWYG. Latest technology. Wallet relief! Feeling poor!   |
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GeoffR
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Latest technology = a different way of achieving the same result but at a greater profit. I know I am a cynic but it seems to me that a modern mirrorless camera lets anyone take a picture and get it right first time without the years of experience that would have been required to achieve the same result on film. I suppose it is progress but I am happy with the D4 (OK I am fed up with the vertical joystick cover coming off) there is nothing that the Z6 does that I want and the Z9 is three times the price, essentially for a grip and a bigger battery. |
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jk
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Eric and Graham you have to watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCpPHjZpEEY https://youtu.be/GRZxoE28QaU |
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jk
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This camera is as big a leap forward as the D2X to the D3 or D3S. I am sorry but the D4, D5, D6 are inch pebbles up from the D3S, but this is a whole 36" paving slab. This is not a camera for everyone but it is a significant milestone. It is streets ahead in technology terms compared to any previous Nikon but so it should be. Until a real use or hands on is available, I will be in awe, but not to the wallet opening extent I have been in the past. This camera is not for me even though it is smaller (149 x 150 x 91mm) than my D3S (160 x 157 x 88 mm). We all need to be aware that personal needs and preferences should rule each person's camera choice not what is new or latest. As GeoffR says the D4 suits him perfectly. That is great. If my D3S had a 33MP or 45MP sensor then I would still be using it in preference to the D800 or D850 but 12MP is not great for the work I was doing when you need to crop. The Z7(ii) is a different beast and I like it but it isnt as great at AF as the Nikon Z9 or the Sony A1 or the Canon R3/5. I have been through all the testing that I want to do for Canon v Nikon v Sony v Fuji. The Sony menus annoy me. The Canon twirly wheel is a complete PITA. The Nikon menus and controls work for me. The Fuji cameras are wonderfully featured but arent as performant as my Z7 or D850 as I would like them to be but I think the XT3 ergonomically is better than any Nikon. These are my personal preferences and thoughts. I am sure that Sony and Canon users will love their cameras but they dont suit me. I am still vacillating with one foot in the Fuji camp and one in the Nikon camp. I need to make a final choice decision before I move one way or other. I want something that is a D700 compared to a D3S version of this Z9, or a Zfc but FF. Maybe the Z8 will be more what I want but does it exist. I could use the term Zf but as a Df as one already exists and I didnt like how Nikon made the dials, it was just clunky! The Zfc is a mature version of the Df, but I want FF, not APS-C. For APS-C the Fuji cameras (XT3 and XH1) suit me better. There is an XH2 coming out in 2022 and it will be 43MP depending on its AF performance it will be my next camera or the D8 |
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Eric
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jk wrote:This camera is as big a leap forward as the D2X to the D3 or D3S.Have you tried the Sony A1 yet? |
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Eric
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The mirrorless revolution is all about manufacturers saving money. Of course they stick on new features then spin them into benefits to match some of the things users have said they 'might' like. Lighter bodies Quieter shutters Wider/faster tracking focus Better video performance (viewfinder and focus) Faster burst rates Real-time image viewing I could go on but the the truth is many of these are aimed at specialist photographic applications. If you have no need for these things, then mirrorless is an expensive distraction. |
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jk
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I agree with what you are saying but unfortunately many people are not very analytical and rely on marketing spin to hook them on a product. I am very resistant to moving from Nikon to any other make and as such the Fuji kit I have I view as an experiment. If it works and is positive then I will get rid of the Nikon kit but that will be an 'in extremis' moment. I love the Nikon menus and button layout it is more understandable than the Fuji stuff which keeps changing between models. The lenses in the new S line for Z cameras are really very little different to the old F mount system lenses. Nikon will try and say there is but the optical performance is very similar between equivalent lenses. I am very happy to use the FTZ adapter on my Z camera with the F mount lenses that are AFS. Ultimately if film suits you better then use film, if F mount cameras are best for you then that is not a debate but some insist that the Z range cameras are a must. I dont agree that Z cameras is the be all, and end all. I dont intend to get another Z camera unless it is exactly what I need. Since my needs change as they have in the last few years I feel that I constantly need to (re)assess my cameras and my needs to see if what I have is what I need. I could probably move to the Sony system with little pain except with the menus. The old Sony menus were almost unusable but the new ones are still poor (IMHO) but the current cameras themselves are pretty much perfect in operation. Unfortunately I am well invested in two alternative systems. If you look at the photographers in niches then what you say is borne out. In the past it was just Canon or Nikon and it was used across all scenarios. Now Sony and others have levered themself into position. But Nikon still seem to have a bigger share in news photography but Canon seem to have capture the sport and wildlife niches but Sony have managed to get in there and seem to be capturing a lot of video/stills areas from sport, news and reportage. The market seems more fluid and less entrenched. |
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jk
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I think this article sums it up. https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/6960525493/nikon-z9-launch-what-nikon-means-by-a-d3-moment-and-why-they-need-one "But while Nikon has been knocked down a few times of late, the Z9 shows that it's emphatically not out. And if, for its next trick, Nikon can pull off a D700 moment... well, wouldn't that be something?" A Z8 which is a Z7 sized body with almost all the features of the Z9 would be a real winner! Yes I would pay £3600 for it. |
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Eric
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When the D3 came out I recall saying that Nikon had released a model destined for a couple of years in the future to try to capture back the market lost to Canon. It was SO much better than anything they or their competitors had to offer it really did feel like a breath of fresh air. Ever since that time I have always regarded Nikon with a degree of suspicion. They do seem to hold back in reserve something special until they need to use it. It's a very reactive as opposed to proactive approach which gives the impression of a company sitting on its creative assets rather than getting them out there and really getting back to leading as opposed to following. They will never get back the top spot with this sort of knee jerk me-too marketing. That said, would I have gone for a Z9 if I was still equipped with Nikon gear? No. Because, as a Geoff said, a D4,5,6 would be more than acceptable and a lot cheaper, and no heavier it seems. I've very quickly adjusted to Sony Menus. It's their terminology/language that takes a bit of getting used to. Having learnt what the body can do.and interpreted Sony's terminology ..it's merely a matter of sticking the adjustments for those function YOU intend to use, onto My Menu. The fn buttons strewn around the bodies are eminently configurable to give direct access to any of the operations. My cameras would require a complete reset for anyone to try to figure out what does what.nothing to do with Sony menus, just my customisation.😉 |
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jk
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It was the D700. A D3 but a small form factor. I expect exactly the same repeat with the Z8 following the Z9. D6 is more expensive than Z9. Manufacturing costs are higher but functionality is less. I think that a move to Sony now for me is unlikely, same as now that you and Graham have moved all your kit to Sony I dont think that it is sensible or rational to jump back to Nikon. These are tools not toys or jewelry! Personally I find mirrorless to be where I want to be. I always thought liveview on the DSLR was a horrible kludge. Mirrorless v DSLR is like Digital v Film. Nostalgia clouds rationaity! |
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Eric
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jk wrote:It was the D700. A D3 but a small form factor. I expect exactly the same repeat with the Z8 following the Z9.Undoubtedly once you move to the 'right mirrorless camera for your needs' there is no real incentive to move back to a DSLR. There are few real disadvantages but some useful advantages with mirrorless. Just on the 'D3 moment'. I don't actually see this as a D3 moment. They haven't brought out something that wipes the floor with the competition as they did back then. They have merely caught up. It remains to be seen how many professional and serious amateurs will be encouraged to make the change from DSLR. The differences and 'testing the water' with mirrorless are likely to be easier to contemplate when the price tag isn't £6k. |
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GeoffR
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I really want to like the Z9 but I can't because it doesn't deliver the, heavily plugged, advantages of mirrorless. Sure it benefits from the removal of the mirror in vibration terms but, crucially for me, it isn't any lighter than the D4 bodies I already have. An extra 160g per body is significant and, if I use my current lenses, another 100+g for FTZ II adaptors means I would be carrying an extra 500g. The other advantages just don't do anything for me, though I accept that for others they may be make or break. What annoys me most however is the attitude of some in the photographic press who are so convinced of the advantages that they fail to see why anyone wouldn't want them. A rational approach would compare like for like, something that hasn't been possible until now because professional mirrorless bodies from Canon and Nikon have only recently become available. Eric's list of user "wants" is an interesting basis for such a comparison, my comments in Blue. Lighter bodies: Yes something I would like but the available body doesn't deliver. Quieter shutters: Not really a problem but if it is there then I won't complain. Wider/faster tracking focus: I haven't encountered a need for better tracking with the lenses I have. May be I should spend a small proportion of price of a Z9 on a longer lens. Better video performance (viewfinder and focus): I don't do video. Faster burst rates: I never use continuous shutter release so it doesn't apply. Real-time image viewing: I am not sure how much of an advantage that is, I have it on my 1J5 but I have managed without for nearly 50 years So I have to agree with him that for me, and I suspect many another amateur, mirrorless is a distraction. |
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chrisbet
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As a rank amateur, I have no need for anything other than my D610 - I have invested in good lenses to go with it, but for the VAST majority of the images and videos I capture, the smartphone is a much more useful tool - image quality on the latest phones is more than good enough with resolutions up to 108 megapixels. Video is also much easier as you can see the framing easily on the screen as long as you are not in very bright sunlight. So the Z series, or Sony, Canon or Fuji alternatives have no interest to me and, I suspect, the vast majority of people who take images for pleasure. |
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jk
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GeoffR wrote:I really want to like the Z9 but I can't because it doesn't deliver the, heavily plugged, advantages of mirrorless. Sure it benefits from the removal of the mirror in vibration terms but, crucially for me, it isn't any lighter than the D4 bodies I already have. An extra 160g per body is significant and, if I use my current lenses, another 100+g for FTZ II adaptors means I would be carrying an extra 500g. The other advantages just don't do anything for me, though I accept that for others they may be make or break.Got to say that I agree with all of this as I dont feel the Z9 is for me but I would like a similar specs on a lighter camera with a smaller battery. I dont do video so video is wasted on me, I seldom do anything more than the occasional CH burst and find it useful but not a must have. The killer items are smaller so like the Z7, with built in GPS, better Dynamic Range on the sensor and anything between 36-50MP is OK. More is not good! Battery if it uses the current Z7 battery then so much the better. |
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Eric
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chrisbet wrote:As a rank amateur, I have no need for anything other than my D610 - I have invested in good lenses to go with it, but for the VAST majority of the images and videos I capture, the smartphone is a much more useful tool - image quality on the latest phones is more than good enough with resolutions up to 108 megapixels.My wife has bought a gimbal head for her iPhone. ( she loves doing videos) There's no doubt it gives rock steady walking video plus the app has some clever tricks. But I can't see here running up and down the touch line filming soccer at her age so it's only going to be valuable if she falls over while filming.it will keep subject lock albeit at a lower angle. I have to laugh (without her seeing me of course) because she now carries more paraphernalia weight to get the iPhone working optimally than she did with her bridge camera. ðŸ¤ðŸ¤ |
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chrisbet
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Eric wrote:I have to laugh (without her seeing me of course) because she now carries more paraphernalia weight to get the iPhone working optimally than she did with her bridge camera. ðŸ¤ðŸ¤Lol, but I bet it is still a lot lighter than your kit! I use the iPad mini to video - it has video stabilisation, the large screen makes composition easy and removes the desire to squint through one eye! |
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jk
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Get yourself a decent camera with a Passepartout. Easy solution, he carries, you shoot. |
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GeoffR
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jk wrote: Battery if it uses the current Z7 battery then so much the better. The exact opposite applies for me, I have EN-EL18s so a camera that uses those would be ideal. |
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Eric
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chrisbet wrote:Lol, but I bet it is still a lot lighter than your kit!It's also created a minor revamp on carrying her phone. Till now, she always carried her phone in her bra. (Wallet in the other side keeping her hands free) But having a 10†metal handle poking out is apparently unacceptable. So she's had a rethink and come up with a better solution..I carry it !!! She's keeping the wallet though. |
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jk
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Haha that will stop you going feral with the finances. Never know what desperate things you might do after the LandRover experience. These new tech are distraction from the mundane. Still trying to get a tradesman to sort out a small but annoying leak at my other house. |
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novicius
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JK: do you still have your house in Spain ? |
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jk
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Yes I do. I hope that 2022 and Covid-reduction everywhere will allow me return for a holiday. |
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novicius
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We can but hope  |
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chrisbet
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I have just got back from Italy - despite the non eu status and covid, the travel was easy in both directions. 10 days of bliss with my hossie! Click here to comment on this image. |
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novicius
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I am envious...plane travel is more costly now is n`t it ? |
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chrisbet
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novicius wrote:I am envious...plane travel is more costly now is n`t it ?Not at all - return flights to Pisa from Stansted were £77 including in flight meals! |
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Robert
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJhQk7M78PE Stunning! Maybe a bit slow to start with but the images are amazing, worth seeing it all. |
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jk
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Very good. Dont buy his second hand cameras! Mind you they are probably maintained by Nikon. |
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novicius
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As JK said..do n`t buy those camera`s...but that video has cin¨ quality,leaving my D3s in the video dust,it`s a nice looking camera too, unfortunately it does n`t have a mirror , and now I´m wondering what the D6 is like, but not much chance getting that (D6) any time soon. |
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novicius
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J K : Mirrorless v DSLR is like Digital v Film. Nostalgia clouds rationaity! I do not agree,..yet I have no arguments against it,other than that I have always been pro the Mirror solution. |
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GeoffR
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Mirrorless V DSLR is nothing like Film V Digital. For a start both mirrorless and DSLR can produce the same result, a file of exactly the same resolution and size captured from the same place with the same lens (all be it with a spacer on the mirrorless body). The nearest equivalent I can come up with is a PAT* box V individual insulation resistance and continuity testers. Both methods will come up with the same result but by slightly different processes. Of course I can override the box and sign the test label anyway if I know the limitations in the same way as I can override settings with a camera. As I have said before, what will cause the demise of the DSLR will be the lack of batteries, fortunately the Z9 uses the same battery as the D4, D5 and D6. *PAT = Portable Appliance Test (for electrical safety). |
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Richard_M
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I was real keen on getting a Z 9. I sold my Nikon f mount bodies and most of the lenses. I have kept the 500 pf. I also sold my Z 6 and Z 7 bodies. I’m currently using a couple of Z fc bodies. One I use for birding, the other for macro. I have also moved on my Olympus gear which I was using mainly for macro. However, the more I consider the z 9 the more I’m starting to doubt whether in fact I do want one. I used my Z6 more than my Z 7, the reason was the file sizes. For birding I have always used an APS-C body, I’m not sure if using higher MP FF sensor and cropping more will be beneficial or not. The Z fc is by no means a replacement for the D500 I sold. For perched birds it does a great job, but like many mirrorless bodies it does suffer from not focusing or freezing, so it does tend to miss focusing on birds inflight. I have also considered jumping ship to either Canon, or Sony, but have decided to wait and see what options will be available in 2022. |
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jk
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The Sony A1 is like the Z9. I think the D500 has always been considered a very good BIF camera as the focus points cover the whole viewfinder (much better than the D850 or Z7). I find the Z7 a very capable camera with some annoying miss outs which arent rectified in the Z7ii. Like you cant save the drive mode to the U banks. |
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Eric
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I have to say after chopping and changing between Canon, Fuji, Nikon (2) & Sony I have come to the conclusion there is no system that fits all. What’s more, the only thing that sets one camera above another is …timing. Within 6 months of a new, industry leading innovation, the other brands catch up. The only thing I have yet to see is anyone catch up Fuji who have by far and away the lightest combination of cameras AND importantly lenses that are idea for general walk around photography. During my journey I have come to the conclusion that when the light is good an FX crop will match and possibly* beat a DX straight image. (When cropped to same field of view). * megapixels and make dependant If the light levels are low, requiring higher ISO, it’s my observation that cropping an FX image draws more attention to the correspondingly enlarged noise. Though the subject may be sharper, so is the noise. I would therefore conclude that filling the frame with the longest glass, (incl a 1.4x teleconverter) and taking the DX 1.5x advantage is by far the best option for birding. Looking at Jeff’s superb wildlife images I also acknowledge that the Olympus 4/3 sensor and its 2x magnification also delivers. I am not a fan of post capture processing (years of HAVING to do it). Being able to fill the frame and not apply noise reduction would always be my choice. Anything I can do to minimise computer work is my mantra. |
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GeoffR
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Eric wrote:I have to say after chopping and changing between Canon, Fuji, Nikon (2) & Sony I have come to the conclusion there is no system that fits all.That all sounds entirely reasonable. I have neither the space nor the money to have more than one complete system and that is now Nikon FX with a range of lenses. As it happens I have too many bodies, but that is easily remedied, and I would like a lens longer than 70-200 that may happen next year. Mirrorless isn't going to happen simply because there is currently nothing that attracts me. The Z6 has the right resolution for me but I want the big battery of the Z9 in a suitable grip. Preferably Nikon would design grips that actually match the camera rather than looking like an afterthought, oh, hang on the grip was an afterthought! In five years time I might reassess the position but for now I am getting more sharp, usable, images than ever so I am happy. I'd still like to transition to D5s but the prices for good ones are still a bit too high. |
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jk
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Well I am not here to preach to the unconverted or the converted but I would never go back to film. The process is just too toxic and doesnt give me anything apart from loss of control of the process. I find that moving back to a DSLR to be quite a challenge as I use the EVF on my mirrorless cameras as a method of assessing exposure. These days I seldom do more than change ISO and aperture, as I shoot Aperture priority, so I get the EVF to vaguely match what I want to capture as my end result. When I shoot manual exposure then I do use the numbers in the viewfinder to assess bit that is less often these days. So when does a DSLR win for me. It wins where the light is very poor and the EVF of a mirrorless camera magnifies the latent noise so it is producing a distracting viewfinder image. Modern/newer than last 2 years EVF are better than older ones but still not perfect. The DSLR definitely wins when shooting against the light which I like to do so I still find my D850 and D600 have utility. At the end it is a tool whether you use it to push nails into wood, then it is a hammer, or to capture an image on a sensor to then allow you to manipulate or not as is your choice. |
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jk
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For those who desired it and have got their name on the list early then the Z9 should be available for collection today (December 23rd) or tomorrow. The manuals are available now for download. https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/589/Z_9.html |
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GeoffR
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Interesting to note that batteries that have a life indication of 4 cannot be charged, I know EN-EL4 and 4a batteries can still be charged so this is a significant change. Of course it may be that using a MH26 or MH26a will allow them to be charged. the instructions say that the EN-EL18d cannot be charged with the MH26/a but third party batteries with the same 3300mAh capacity have been available for some time for use in the D4/5/6 so one has to wonder what Nikon have been doing to the new battery. The menus are not hugely different from those of the later top end DSLRs, anyone with experience of one of those should have no trouble adapting to the Z9. |
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novicius
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To me it is Not only about that EVF, I looked tru a compact FUJI that had an Optical finder and an EVF that could be flipped-in , its EVF was better than the optical finder prompting me to note that it was the optical that was bad,..talk about an afterthought,like those wire-frame finders, like, ah yea,you also want to kinda know what it is that you`re taking a photo off,use this then..the SLR has always been the optimum finder for me, as I can see what the Photo will look like,...the Z camera`s can be smaller and less weighty, but really ??..is that so..I`m thinking about modern Wide-Angles,..Them ar HUGE !!..and for a good reason, which is the Sensor, which does Not take kindly to a steep incidence, notice how Long modern wides are..them are really Long..Compared my IRIX 11 f4.0 to my Nikkor 20f2.8 ai-s...the IRIX is practically Three times as long and more than twice as heavy ...in the Old days , the Shorter foc.Length was..the Shorter the lens became..not so now..oh no..they`ve become longer even..and that because the sensor can not handle a steep incidence,so make the incidence narrower,causing the lens to become longer..now the Z camera becomes smaller,yet with wide-angles getting longer/bigger..and having to stay just as far from that Z-sensor as with the SLR...then what`s the point ?? |
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Richard_M
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I have now ordered a Z 9. No idea when I'm likely to receive it, but I'm hoping it will be by the end of January, although there was no mention which year.  I'm still in two minds about the 100-400mm lens. I've still got my 500 pf and I've also ordered the FTZ II adapter. I also have a Z 1.4TC which only works with the 70-200 and 100-400, neither of which I have. It would have been nice if it was compatible with the 105mm macro then I could've got some use out of it while considering my next move. The Z fc with the 500pf is still going strong, and I know losing the additional focal length moving to FF is going to take some getting used to. One snap from this morning with the Z fc and 500pf Tawny Frogmouth  |
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jk
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Fine image Richard. I am hoping there is a Z8 so almost all the features of the Z9 but without the mega burst rate but more than the Z7 even though the Z7 still works well for me. Just got a 14-30mm f4 S line lens so I am well set for my landscapes. |
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jk
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Rumours starting to bubble about the Z8. It will be a Z9-lite. Z9 next batch coming next week. So it seems that supply issues are easing but not gone! |
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Iain
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The Z8 will have too many pixels for me, I'm looking for a Z6 with Z9 type tracking. |
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jk
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45MP is the old 12MP! |
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novicius
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That Z8 a DX machine ?? |
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jk
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No it is expected that Z8 is FF. Nikon view seems to be that FF is their market. APS-C mirrorless market is smaller and seems that Fuji dominate there. My D500 is very good but moving to Nikon Zfc has little interest for me as I have a full Fuji system. By middle of this year I expect to decide either to move all my kit to Nikon FF and get rid of all Fuji kit or the reverse e.g. get rid of all Nikon and move totally to Fuji. |
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Graham Whistler
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Why not go Sony? |
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jk
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Dont like Sony as a camera company. They will come to be a dominant force but I prefer the Nikon and Fuji way of update a camera. Sony does not fix it, introduces a new updated model, this is environmental vandalism. We need to encourage resource reduction not a throw away society. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Dont like Sony as a camera company. They will come to be a dominant force but I prefer the Nikon and Fuji way of update a camera.Never realised I just bought a throw away disposable camera. |
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jk
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There will be an A1mkii soon I am sure. I would suggest that you keep the camera if it satisfies your needs. What I am pointing to is the stream of cameras in the A7 range. |
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Iain
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I am trying the Z6ii but if this fails it may be a change to Sony. |
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jk
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Interesting times for all of us. It is just a camera at the end of the day. the badge on the front or on the lenses is incidental if they do what you want. Let us know what you decide. |
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Iain
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jk wrote:Interesting times for all of us.I did rugby with it today and all seems ok, just need to work the AF settings out. |
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Iain
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Well it was ok for the rugby but the focus for the wildlife was no good, too slow and hunting. Soooo I now have a Sony A9 and 200-600mm so we will see how that goes. |
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jk
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Which lens did you use for wildlife on the Z6ii. |
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Iain
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jk wrote:Which lens did you use for wildlife on the Z6ii.A 80-400 with the ftz. |
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jk
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The AFS version I guess since you are using the FTZ. |
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Iain
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jk wrote:The AFS version I guess since you are using the FTZ.Yes it was Jonathan. |
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