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| Moderated by: chrisbet, | ||
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chrishamer
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JK mentioned he had bought the Z7 and that made me wonder how many have made the jump to mirrorless? I'm in that camp too, having bought a Z6 after using the Canon EOS RP for a few months after receiving it for review. I know there are some Fuji users - assuming that's still the case? But how many have made the jump to the Z mount system? Keeping abreast of most of the news the lens roadmap doesn't look too bad, and it does look like this will be a bit longer lived than Nikon's last go at it, but it'd be interesting to hear everyone else's thoughts? |
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Eric
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Hi Chris, nice to here your posting again. For me, the transition to mirrorless is still a work in progress. At the moment it's very much a case of on what and how you intend to use it. A key attribute of mirrorless is weight saving. But this is only realised if the camera is used as it stands (eg without added grips/batteries) and with similarly lightweight lenses. It's my observation that all mirrorless camera bodies have departed, to some degree or another, from the evolutionary ergonomic design of the current DSLR bodies. I have always felt the D750 and now the D850 are the pinnacle of 'in the hand' fit. The problem, if it is indeed a problem for some, is the weight of that body size, especially with the added weight of typical DSLR lenses. I would have much preferred Nikon to keep the body size of the Z system the same as the D750/850....just made it lighter. Making it smaller compromises balance and comfort when handholding heavier/longer lenses. I bought into the Fuji XT programme and was happy with the weight of the bodies and day to day lenses. The retro look, angular feel and corners weren't my ideal but the camera was light enough to 'put up with' the feel most of the time. It was only when I started taking bird photographs that I realised the Fuji 400mm zoom lens was only marginally lighter than the Nikon equivalent. In addition, the need for best operational speed could only be approached with a battery grip and 2 batteries. Whilst this grip added back some balance, it also added weight. My birding kit was therefore only a couple of hundred grams lighter than an Nikon DSLR equivalent set up. Despite loving the wysiwyg exposure compensation, I ditched Fuji because it's functionality, evf, weight and battery life failed to improve on a DSLR kit....IN THIS APPLICATION. I tried the Z7 but although the evf was much improved and the feel in the hand was less lumpy than the Fuji, it was still short in the grip making it imbalanced in the hand even with my new lightweight 500mm PF lens. So I have arrived at the belief that whilst mirrorless is good for many applications it is a compromise for some....at the moment. That said, I am moving towards having both systems in parallel. Keeping shorter, lighter lenses for a mirrorless camera but a DSLR for faster more distant and exacting subjects. Right now my dilemma is which DSLR to keep and which mirrorless to get. |
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blackfox
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I made the transition last year ,selling all my canon gear and getting a Panasonic g80 plus a Leica 100-400 lens . its a good combo I still have it .. but although b.i.f can be got there was something lacking (hard to define ) I then got back into a DSLR mode with the acquisition of bodies and lenses .. however my recent heart problems have made things a shade uncomfortable for me and am looking at going back to mirrorless MFT .. a lot of contacts are raving about the Olympus omd1-mkii which has had a recent firmware upgrade which when coupled with the leica 100-400 makes a very good ,fast all round combo .. it may well be the path I take again shortly . I have to carefully weigh up any gains against costs so it may or may not happen . one advantage of mirrorless especially olympus and panasonic that a lot of people don't mention is that with the right adaptors old legacy glass has a new lease of life .. which makes it very attractive . giving for the sake of argument a 200mm m42 lens into a manual focus 200mm with 4 way IBIS . focus peaking also helps on these lens/body combos . so for now that's the story all I can add is watch this space |
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jk
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I run both Fuji X mirrorless and Nikon D850, D600, D500 systems. I like the Fuji system as it is actually a better camera to 'hold'. The XT3/2 are digital Nikon F3 or FM cameras but not FX/FF. The Z7 is a lovely camera but has limitations. Try bright backlit subject where you want to see the eyes in focus - fail! This is a situation I have discussed with several other Z users. We do know about d8 setting. Mirrorless doesnt work well as it is either the shadow or the highlight that is shown in the EVF. A DSLR works better. |
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jk
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Regarding comments from Eric... The D850 is a hugely complex and well evolved camera but it is heavy, not as heavy as a D5 or a Canon 1DS mkiii but heavy compared to a Z7 or Fuji XT3. Everything in life is a compromise, perfection is a notional idea like Brexit a million things to different people. All the cameras are compromises of weight, functionality and backwards compatibility. We can now get on ebay adapters from China that provide fully functional use of legacy lenses on the latest cameras. I recently saw someone using a Hasselblad V series lens adapted for use on Fuji GFX50 camera but also on Nikon F/DSLR camera (with a different adapter). Re Jeff's liking for 4/3 cameras I understand the liking of fine glass from Olympus/Panasonic/Leica but for me the compromise to the smaller sensor is a step too far except if I was doing street photography. My photography these days is largely self funded so I dont want to invest in more kit and I feel I have more than enough. I am sure that Eric would think that I have grossly over invested! |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Regarding comments from Eric...Not at all Jonathan. You can't take it with you. It's just that I get easily confused when I have too much choice to hand. As I am feeling a bit controversial today ....  .....I have no legacy glass to play with. But I am not sure I totally believe all the stories about the 1960s glass being better than today's lenses. When I first changed to digital I had to change a number of my then legacy lenses because frankly they showed far too much chromatic aberration with a sensor behind them, even though they were sharp, smooth in operation and my favourites. Or ...maybe all my old lenses were cr*p versions? Anyway in the spirit of clearing the decks...they went. That said, I never had any complaints about my work using the new upstarts...so they couldn't have been that inferior to the old timers. 😆 Actually that's not true. I did get a complaint from a big farm/land owner that his rusty, muddy, filthy, leaky, dilapidated, carrot harvesting and packing machinery complex looked rusty, muddy, filthy, leaky and dilapidated in my photos. Even when I had him stand in the puddles where I stood and gaze at the rusty heap, he couldn't / wouldn't see the similarity. I could have done with some softer focus, lower contrast glass on that day....and help from Merlin. But I digress. I can understand people blowing off the dust from these old timers when the cost of a modern equivalent quality lens is too prohibitive...and they already have them on the shelf. I can understand the fascination in adapting glass to fit new bodies. I just don't believe all the hype on some forums about glass being better back in the day.  |
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Eric
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jk wrote:I run both Fuji X mirrorless and Nikon D850, D600, D500 systems.We must compare hands, one day, Jonathan.  Just one other thought.... I don't carry my cameras around my neck or over my shoulders, preferring to hold them (sans strap) all the time in my hand. Doing that, I found the XT with all but the shortest lenses became less comfortable with time. Maybe I should fit and use the strap?  |
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jk
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All my cameras except the underwater ones have straps. I usually walk with it over my shoulder but in studio I either use it on a tripod or around my neck. I like the old LowePro neoprene straps but they were discontinued about three years ago. The closest I found as a replacement is these ones. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Skidproof-Neoprene-Neck-Strap-for-SLR-DSLR-Camera-Binocular-Nikon-Canon-Sony-UK/13310154 However these do not have the swivels which stops the small strap ends getting twisted. |
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blackfox
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Well sold my big lens today for what I paid for it ,and I will be part exing my 7200 body tomorrow and getting a Olympus omd1-mkii .. hopefully it will fullfill my needs . I already have the P/L 100-400 lens that a lot are using with it .. This has come about due to ongoing heart problems rather than any problems with my Nikon gear .the weight was making it a chore rather than a pleasure .. Had a thermo nuclear scan yesterday and I have now got to have another next week ,so hopefully I've made the right choice .. |
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Robert
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Good luck with it Jeff, big lenses are hard work. And all the best for next week. |
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blackfox
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Cheers rob .. felt really rough yesterday as you know .. thought things over and realised it's not going to improve overnight , I'm fast galloping to 74 and the heart is not helping .. my mobility is also getting worse a combination of both I suppose .. your always welcome to pop in when passing .. or go for another tour around ... |
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jk
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Hope that your health improves Jeff. The Olympus is a fine camera and it is smaller and lighter so hopefully you will feel more comfortable. |
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chrishamer
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Fascinating points above, thanks for all the replies! I do find the uptake of mirrorless fascinating, in that it wasn't what I expected. I did think more people would jump ship than have. Interesting to hear what you say about ergonomics, I have fairly big hands but find the Z6 really nice, that being said, I do have a small extension plate on the bottom adding an extra couple of centimetres. I'm not surprised to hear the popularity of the D850 though, Nikon really did pack everything into one body and get it pretty much perfect. I don't have any experience of the xt3's but I did try the OM-D and think that's a lovely little camera - hope it works out for you Jeff! I quite like the Panasonic G series too, we've had a few of those and they are useful for video work. I'm definitely totally invested in the Z system though, hopefully it's not a dead end! |
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Eric
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chrishamer wrote:Fascinating points above, thanks for all the replies!Don't get me wrong, the Z ergonomics are ok when using short to medium tele lenses. It's when you get longer lenses (400-500) that the balance is unsettling. I therefore decided not to use it for long tele situations and got a D500. I am now thinking that dedicating the the D500 for this specific subject could quite easily release me to get the Z6 for shorter range applications. Is this the plate you have on the base? https://www.photospecialist.co.uk/really-right-stuff-base-plate-for-nikon-z7-and-z6?channable=e13528.UlJTQlo3QlA&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_oHp1vGt5AIVCLrtCh0wmwBUEAQYCSABEgIF3fD_BwE I did consider getting one to see if it helped grip but wondered if it would make enough of a difference being only 10-12mm. And at £100 it seemed a lot to try speculatively. |
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chrishamer
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Eric wrote:Don't get me wrong, the Z ergonomics are ok when using short to medium tele lenses. It's when you get longer lenses (400-500) that the balance is unsettling. I therefore decided not to use it for long tele situations and got a D500. I am now thinking that dedicating the the D500 for this specific subject could quite easily release me to get the Z6 for shorter range applications. Oh I cheaped out on the grip, I got the Meike one as I have a more expensive cage for video work https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/264404168967?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=264404168967&targetid=595627732953&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9050373&poi=&campaignid=1701291834&mkgroupid=68042092202&rlsatarget=pla-595627732953&abcId=1140496&merchantid=138804939&gclid=CjwKCAjwtajrBRBVEiwA8w2Q8F-3BVl80Y-pVFTvpO5xXMN9VIlLJ1Rq7r8uFJga55AXkr-Ju_rySBoCCR0QAvD_BwE - sorry for the huge link. Fair enough on the long glass... I don't own any of that so don't have the experience there at all. |
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Eric
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chrishamer wrote:Oh I cheaped out on the grip, I got the Meike one as I have a more expensive cage for video work https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/264404168967?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=264404168967&targetid=595627732953&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9050373&poi=&campaignid=1701291834&mkgroupid=68042092202&rlsatarget=pla-595627732953&abcId=1140496&merchantid=138804939&gclid=CjwKCAjwtajrBRBVEiwA8w2Q8F-3BVl80Y-pVFTvpO5xXMN9VIlLJ1Rq7r8uFJga55AXkr-Ju_rySBoCCR0QAvD_BwE - sorry for the huge link.Ah yes...that looks deeper and cheaper!  |
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chrishamer
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Eric wrote:Ah yes...that looks deeper and cheaper!For the money, it honestly isn't bad. If you need a longer grip and don't mind the angle, I'd say give it a go! |
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jk
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Eric wrote:Don't get me wrong, the Z ergonomics are ok when using short to medium tele lenses. It's when you get longer lenses (400-500) that the balance is unsettling. I therefore decided not to use it for long tele situations and got a D500. I am now thinking that dedicating the the D500 for this specific subject could quite easily release me to get the Z6 for shorter range applications.Eric, now you are following why I bought the D500 and the D850. The handling of the D500 with a 200-500mm is superb and the AF spots on the D500 cover the whole screen which when used in dynamic mode for capturing birds in flight (BIF) makes for a much easier/better shooting experience. In contrast on the D850 the AF spots are central and dont stretch to the viewfinder edges, not good! |
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blackfox
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update , now done the full switch right or wrong time will tell .. I could have save a couple of hundred quid buying grey but decided to buy from LCE part exchanged my d7200 and they actually gave me more than I initially paid for it ,so result there ... olympus really do seem ahead of the game though the camera comes with a free macro lens (you have to claim for) and an amazing 5 years 6 months full warranty . |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric, now you are following why I bought the D500 and the D850.Oh, I have always followed your reasoning Jonathan and acknowledge the principal of 'the best tool for the job'. My problem is twofold (the wife thinks it's three fold 😆). Firstly, I abhor expensive equipment sitting idol. Not only is it a waste of good brass (depreciating asset = poison for a Yorkshireman) but, albeit for a moment, when I come to use it after weeks? of non use, there is a frustrating refamilarisation that gets in the way which can demotivate me. Secondly, although there is no doubt a 'best tool for the job', there are countless exceptional photographers using the equipment they HAVE AVAILABLE and getting outstanding results. For example, I've seen superb bif photos taken on D850s, a host of lesser D bodies and even Z bodies, that imho couldn't/wouldn't be improved by using the D500. I am sure Jeff won't mind me pointing out non of his exceptional results were taken on a D500. That's a long winded way of saying I still believe I should be able to take the photos I want on one camera, without needing the extra help of a specific ADDITIONAL camera. OK..Thirdly, (as my good lady points out) after 25years as a professional photographer, there is an element of photography burn out in me. Deadlines, end products, customers all push at you, requiring you to push back to make a living. When they stop, there's nothing to push against...it's then just your basic enthusiasm to take a photograph. I don't want equipment choice to further diminish that enthusiasm. |
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Eric
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blackfox wrote:update , now done the full switch right or wrong time will tell .. I could have save a couple of hundred quid buying grey but decided to buy from LCE part exchanged my d7200 and they actually gave me more than I initially paid for it ,so result there ...Good luck with the change Jeff. I am sure you will get it singing just as sweetly as your other cameras....and in a lighter package. More importantly, it will hopefully take some of the angst and effort out of it all for you. Look forward to hearing your full appraisal in due course. But take it easy, that's the main thing. |
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jk
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Eric wrote:Oh, I have always followed your reasoning Jonathan and acknowledge the principal of 'the best tool for the job'.Yes I agree but I am very careful with my purchase of equipment and my purchase criteria are very tight around design layout, battery use and other factors. Small things such as 10 pin interface versus usb-like interface are big things to me as the usb-like connector is less than ideal. For this and other reasons I have never considered the Df or D4, D5 and instead got the D850 and Z7 even though they have too many pixels. The D800 is IMHO a better camera than the D5 but that is for my use. I think it also provides a better balance of pixel count. The D810 is technically better but there are more improvements in handling in the D850. I think that may be an impractical ideal but I very much agree with it as a concept. Unless you can replicate all the functionality advantage of a FX in a DX body and all the advantages of a mirrorless in a DSLR and vice versa. Adeptness and other skills can provide most of this but there are always compromises. I have recently found this with some of my recent shoots and am glad that I have the Z7 and the D850. The third point is very important and I find this is also a key driver for me. I find it difficult to self start unless I make a project for myself but I can be distracted by other things! Maybe we all need to discuss this in more detail in a separate thread as we all seem to suffer from this in differing amounts. |
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Eric
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I think that may be an impractical ideal but I very much agree with it as a concept. Unless you can replicate all the functionality advantage of a FX in a DX body and all the advantages of a mirrorless in a DSLR and vice versa. I am full of them. The third point is very important and I find this is also a key driver for me. I find it difficult to self start unless I make a project for myself but I can be distracted by other things! Maybe we all need to discuss this in more detail in a separate thread as we all seem to suffer from this in differing amounts. Get Chris to add a Psychotherapy section. |
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jk
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I see this problem (#3) as a problem that manifests itself when we get distracted from our photography and cannot find a method of overcoming these distractions. I dont know what causes it but I think it comes from a conflict of priorities, I dont know but it is just a guess! We can use the Photography Projects forum for that. Setting up new fora is easy compared to the spaghetti unravelling that Chris has been doing. |
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Robert
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Eric wrote:Get Chris to add a Psychotherapy section. With AI? That might be fun! Seriously, I feel things come in waves of enthusiasm. Hobbies and work. It might be interesting to start a thread on motivation? I just can't find the motivation, it got up and went, along with my get up and go  Since I went to Scotland in May, I have turned off photography completely. Although I have been very busy with my new shed, I would normally have been on a few sorties, OK I went out and took a few Pix of the stars last week, I guess that's a start. This year has been an extreme roller coaster for me with massive ups and downs, I think that has taken it's toll. I am currently doing battle with some new, on trial website creation software... I need my head examining. |
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jk
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Robert wrote:With AI? That might be fun!I agree that we all feel these peaks and troughs. What is the name of the website software? |
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Robert
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Freeway 7. I used it in the early 2000's built several websites with it back then I think I ended at Freeway3. It's Mac only, described now as an html generator., I think you can get at the code but it's largely shielded from view. I want to use it as a front end to access multiple Lightroom Web Albums. Once up and running I can then add albums as required, or add to existing albums by generating new versions and replacing previous versions with an ftp uploader like fetch. I also hope to be able to finally publish the book on the same platform, or alongside it. |
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jk
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I will take a look out for it. https://www.softpress.com/freeway-pro/ |
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Iain
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Eric said “The third point is very important and I find this is also a key driver for me. I find it difficult to self start unless I make a project for myself but I can be distracted by other things! Maybe we all need to discuss this in more detail in a separate thread as we all seem to suffer from this in differing amounts“ I feel the same since I stopped working professionally. |
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Robert
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There is a months free trial so I trying it out, I have no doubt it will do the job... It's more a matter of whether I can get the hang of it sufficiently to get it to do what I want. One of it's main claims is that it's intuitive, perhaps I am lacking something but I can't use it at all without constant reference to the tutorial videos. If it ever 'clicks' I will have fun, otherwise I may look for another software. Dreamweaver used to be the one but since Adobe got it the price has become unreachable. I really ought to start a new thread, rather than hogging Chris's mirrorless discussion. |
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jk
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Robert wrote:There is a months free trial so I trying it out, I have no doubt it will do the job... It's more a matter of whether I can get the hang of it sufficiently to get it to do what I want. One of it's main claims is that it's intuitive, perhaps I am lacking something but I can't use it at all without constant reference to the tutorial videos.You can do it all with simple html code. I will take a look at Freeway 7 and see how I find it but I cant do it at present as I have just bought another house and I have builders in the other one. Lots of stuff to do. |
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Robert
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Thanks JK, no rush, I have started another thread. Sorry Chris. |
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chrishamer
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Iain wrote:Eric said Interesting what you've all said, obviously not something I've come up against but can certainly empathise. |
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Eric
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chrishamer wrote:Interesting what you've all said, obviously not something I've come up against but can certainly empathise.Give it a few more years Chris. |
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Eric
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This thread has sparked some re examination of the weight saving with Nikon mirrorless. The issue for me has always been the combined weight of DSLR lenses when added to the body weight. There are two DSLR ways to lessening that weight....get a lower spec body or a lower spec lens.....or both! (Ok that's three 😆) For the body, the 675g Z7 body is clearly lighter than the 1005g D850..... but the 675g Z6 is not that much lighter than for example the 750g D750. The lens contribution is in some ways simpler but also, at the same time, more complicated. Because the Z lens range currently covers only 14-70, focal lengths, beyond this the lenses are going to be the same = weight for both systems. ( except the extra weight for the Z-F connector). But within the 14-70 DSLR range there are a plethora of different quality and hence weight lenses, that you could use to compare with the Z offerings, just to make life more difficult. So for the moment, the real weight saving stops at the body and 70mm. I accept that the respective performances of both camera body and lens quality, muddy the comparison water. But if weight is a greater driving force than absolute performance, and frankly for amateur use there are a lot of excellent alternatives to fit most bills, then there are ways to lessen the DSLR load without going to mirrorless. My main motivation for mirrorless would be the wysiwyg exp. comp. |
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Iain
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I am still thinking about mirrorless as quite a few of the guys i know have changed over and are producing great wildlife shots. The big thing for me is I would need to try it for a few weeks to be sure. |
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jk
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I dont know if others agree but for me I find that DX provides a better solution than FX when I am birding but for motorsport either work very well. Well if you go Fuji the XT3 is better again for AF performance. The 100-400 lens is good and if you use the TCx1.4 with it you get a FX equivalent of a ~200-840. However the lens is a heavyweight beast (1375g) for a Fuji and then add the camera body (539g). |
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Eric
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Iain wrote:I am still thinking about mirrorless as quite a few of the guys i know have changed over and are producing great wildlife shots.That's the point I was making earlier...to some extent it doesn't matter what camera you have. As Ella said....“T'aint what you do, it's the way that you do itâ€.  I'm sure if we were ranking camera's performance for wildlife, the D500 would come top of everyone's list. But a D850 or Z7 in the right hands and situation will not be far behind....if at all. And remember, the only weight saving is the difference between the Nikon bodies when using focal lengths above 70mm. D500.... 760g Z bodies ....675g, plus ZF adapter weight! Having tried the Fuji 100-400 on an XT2 I was not impressed with speed and balance. The XT3 may well be better, but you then need to buy their lenses. And at the risk of offending some...... WEX happily offer 28days unconditional return on all new sales. I had a Z7 for a week before I decided it wasn't what I wanted for wildlife. They picked it up and refunded in total. It's a fact of internet selling life and covered by the remote purchasing law. So I don't have any qualms about doing it occasionally. |
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jk
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So what camera are you using these days Eric? You have me confused with all the options you have been considering. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:So what camera are you using these days Eric?I confuse myself. D850 D500 Fuji XE (IR) I tried the Z7 but at the time I (blinkedly) expected it to work for birding as well as general use....sent it back as I wasn't happy with it for long lens use. I have since learnt that it's shortcomings were probably 75% due to my rustiness on bird photographic technique and proximity to the subjects. I really prefer using the D850 (apart from file size) and only use the D500 for the DX factor when birding (which is very rare these days). With these points in mind I am debating whether I should keep the D500 or px it for a Z6. Cropping the D850 images would still work in lieu of DX factor. On the other hand I may consider pxing the D850 for a Z7 ....as it would give weight saving and the other benefits of mirrorless. The D500 could then stay attached to 500mm + TC for those long reach moments. The dilemma for me is that I do like the D850 and it might be a bridge burning too far 😆....but I don't want to just ADD another body to the cupboard. 😠In fact the Fuji IR will soon go on eBay as my interest has waned. So maybe the few quid I get for that might stir me towards one of the Z kits anyway. In addition, I won on the premium bonds this week! So that's another £25 towards one. |
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jk
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Keep D500 it is 'the birding camera'. The Z6 is a fine video camera and stills camera but there are occasions where mirrorless is deficient. This is really shown up when you do against the light shooting. |
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chrishamer
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So I'm not going to quote replies as it'd get quite messy, but overall I find the arguments for mirrorless or not mirrorless for me have nothing much to do with weight. It's actually size. The thing that stops me taking photos with a proper camera is more of a size issue than anything else, I find the Z6 and the collapsible 24-70 F4 give me something I can 'throw' in a bag and take with me that was more compact than my older options. Otherwise, it's just to easy to default to my iPhone XS, which can deliver surprisingly good images in good light. Also, for me, part of the issue is that I'm a little more limited on kit. I couldn't afford a D850 and D500 or derivative thereof, yes I did have a very capable D600, but the video was atrocious, and I need that nowadays. I like the jack of all trades aspect of mirrorless, I think it does that better with less compromise than most options. |
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chrishamer
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In addition to my last post, it looks like an updated lens roadmap has leaked for the Z series, some very interesting propositions, nice to see Nikon doubling down on 1.2 vs 1.4 https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/05/new-2020-2012-nikon-nikkor-z-s-line-lens-roadmap-leaked.aspx/ |
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Eric
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chrishamer wrote:So I'm not going to quote replies as it'd get quite messy, but overall I find the arguments for mirrorless or not mirrorless for me have nothing much to do with weight.You are being very persuasive, Chris. (Damn you!. ) |
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jk
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Like most things in life if you want to make rationale choices then you need to be able to describe what you must have! From that point you have your 'requirements' that you can validate your choices against. Please note the 650 in HoP have no clue what they want, only what they dont want and that isnt very clear! Hence the current Brexit disaster situation. |
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chrisbet
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jk wrote:Please note the 650 in HoP have no clue what they want, only what they dont want and that isnt very clear! Hence the current Brexit disaster situation.Oh, I think they know exactly what they want - the trouble is that it would threaten their political careers if they came out and said it! Some aim to make capital out of leave, others aim to make capital out of remain - then we have the overlying for of party politics. It will all end in tears for some. What really bugs me is that ONLY 17.4 million of the voting population voted to leave the EU - the other 29 million of the voting public did NOT vote to leave - totally off topic ....  |
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jk
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My point was/is, like so many things in life, you can drift to a solution, but if you know what you want before you depart, it is easier to go straight there rather than meandering. |
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chrishamer
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Eric wrote:You are being very persuasive, Chris. (Damn you!. Haha, I'll take that as a compliment. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:My point was/is, like so many things in life, you can drift to a solution, but if you know what you want before you depart, it is easier to go straight there rather than meandering.Wow that's very sagacious Jonathan. You haven't become a Buddhist in Cornwall have you? |
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jk
|
Sorry Eric but I have been a Buddhist most of my life. Blame going to pre-school where I was taught by nuns and the public school where headmaster was son of Archbishop of Canterbury! Actually there is nothing wrong with drifting to a solution as much is learned during this process. It is something that many business leaders dont understand. However as an IT consultant in business process and re-engineering systems and processes I have also seen many failures due to people not understanding what they really, really want rather than trying to cherry pick technology features. Somewhere in between is a good balance. I still need to find it. I know that my photographic meanderings mean that I have 'too much kit', as being abroad I couldnt sell or px very easily. However I occasionally do use the old piece of kit which makes it useful if not particularly cost efficient. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Sorry Eric but I have been a Buddhist most of my life.Wow 2....I didn't realise I was that perceptive. Well done you. My CEO at the company I worked for (pre PhotoFX) use to refer to me as his Artistic Gypsy. I always assumed that had something to do with my caravan holidays and creative problems solving.....but it could have been he thought I wandered around my decision making, eventually creating abstract results. |
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Robert
|
jk wrote:My point was/is, like so many things in life, you can drift to a solution, but if you know what you want before you depart, it is easier to go straight there rather than meandering.Brings to mind the Irishman when asked the way to a remote Irish village by a tourist, scratched his head for a minute and announced: "Well you know, If I was going there, I wouldn't be setting off from here..." |
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Eric
|
Robert wrote:Brings to mind the Irishman when asked the way to a remote Irish village by a tourist, scratched his head for a minute and announced: "Well you know, If I was going there, I wouldn't be setting off from here..." Dont you love the Irish? Its the only place in the world where you can walk across a seemingly empty square at 3 in the morning and pass a stranger who says “It's yerself thenâ€. Having said that, when visiting my father in Yorkshire, we sometimes took a walk along the canal bank and every stranger we passed said “Nah thenâ€. Even started doing it back. |
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Eric
|
So just to go back on topic..... What I have surmised is that mirrorless aren't at their best for fast moving subjects and contre jour lighting. Their lesser weight is only relevant when fitted with Z lenses. But their reduced bulk makes them more portable. With these points in mind I am still leaning towards adding the Z6 to see if it dislodges the D850s place in my heart. Another of our kitchen appliances went to that 'great scrapyard in the sky' yesterday. It's replacement arrived this afternoon with little ceremony or indeed inconvenience to me ....apart from the cost. 😠I will have to give my wallet time to catch it's breath and stop the palpitations but have decided to pop along to WEX and look at the Z6 with new eyes. |
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chrisbet
|
As I get older I become far more interested in the journey than the inevitable destination! In my wanderings around Europe by far the best experiences have come from unplanned diversions. Pleasure riding is exactly the same - we aren't going anywhere, we have no purpose other than to enjoy the journey in each other's company. When I lived in Nottingham, strangers would often say "Ey up duck".  |
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jk
|
Eric wrote:So just to go back on topic.....Just bought another house here in Cornwall. It was as perfect as a Z7, so it has some strengths/weaknesses, but costs x100. So I had to go buy a new fridge, so much choice, but I got something that was somewhat luxurious but functional. I cant believe that someone would pay the same money for a fridge as a nice Z7 kit! Heh how. No more cameras for me I guess. |
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chrishamer
|
Eric wrote:So just to go back on topic.....I think that's a fairly fair estimation. However, I would say that with the right settings and techniques the Z6 can be pretty good for action photography, especially (and I realise this might be counterintuitive and not realistic in all scenarios) when you have the chance to select an object for the camera to track. I found if I told it to track a car or bird it does do a fairly decent job. But yeah, it isn't a DX/XXX. However, I would say that we might see further improvements with firmware, the last one certainly gave the AF system one hell of a boost. |
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Robert
|
I said this as the Z's were released, but perhaps it bears repeating. The Z line is brand new. It will develop, evolve and improve. Compare the D1 with the D850, best part of 20 years development? OK a bit extreme but relevant, this is high technology, a perfect product is Also bear in mind that the features which are good for one type of subject don't suit all types of subjects, no camera is perfect for everything, there will always be compromises if the user wants their camera for multiple specialised uses, if only the significant differences between FX and DX. Also higher resolution can bring benefits, it also brings what for some, are issues, like more demanding technique and massive file size to name but two. Horses for courses and give evolution a chance, we are only at the first iteration. I have used a Z7 for a day and loved it. The likelihood of my ever owning one is less than zero, one can but dream, I never thought I would get a D800, I'm not about to bin my D300S or my D3. |
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Eric
|
Robert wrote:I said this as the Z's were released, but perhaps it bears repeating.True BUT.... many people believe the Z7 is already comparable with the D850 ...or at least 95%. You wouldn't have to wait 20years for it to be 100%. In fact, it's 'next iteration' may well supersede an already superb camera. So the Zcameras are not THAT shabby right now.....worthy of buying and learning to manage their limitations. As I said earlier... a good photographer, experienced in his specialism(S) would manage with a camera not necessarily designed for those specialisms. By that I mean one camera CAN perform multiple tasks...especially if you aren't using it to make a living. (guess some will disagree with that) Never say never....there may be one body that would fulfill all the requirements you delegate to your D800, D300s and D3 ? |
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Iain
|
At the moment the Z series are all full frame, not good for wildlife. Second unless you buy the PF lens you have to use old heavy lenses that aren't well balanced with a mirror less camera. |
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chrisbet
|
Does the Z series not provide frame cropping? One of the things the D610 does is allow you to crop the sensor to DX - I am assuming that you want the extra focal length for your birding, or am I wrong? |
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jk
|
Yes it does. But IMHO unless you really want to do everything in camera it is easier to shoot FX and crop on computer. |
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jk
|
Iain wrote:At the moment the Z series are all full frame, not good for wildlife. Second unless you buy the PF lens you have to use old heavy lenses that aren't well balanced with a mirror less camera.I am sure that there will be a Z camera that is DX or some other designation e.g. T series. The current Nikon range is just crying out for a 24MP mirrorless APS-C camera with the F mount rather than the S mount found on the Z series camera. If Nikon do this then the AFS F mount glass will become very valuable. Nikon will get a lot of sales for such a camera. |
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Robert
|
Eric wrote:True BUT.... many people believe the Z7 is already comparable with the D850... You seem to have slightly missed my point... I was alluding to the Z7 being already as advanced as DSLRs, the potential for development is only to be guessed at but I believe if technology of camera design continues as it is and concerted development of the Z line continues, which I am sure it will, then there are some amazing cameras to come. That was really my point. We aint' nowhere yet, on step one of a long staircase. I probably made my point badly! LOL A D500 might replace my D300S? One day... Maybe, I'm not a great lover of DX... As Chris says, one can crop and I find using a DX a bit like peering through a keyhole after using FX cameras. As for the D3, although I fell out with it for night time photography it's a real winner for sports and motor racing. The D800 feels like it's rapid repeat is about once a fortnight! The trend now is to use high speed video and take thousands of exposures over several minutes, selecting the best few and layering them with the best of the best. An interesting technique which uses software to determine the image quality. Comparing thousands of very similar images would be very tedious but also subjective and over time the visual comparison would wander this way and that. Perhaps the Zs will develop the electronic shutter sufficiently to allow such techniques to be used. Currently I understand the electronic shutter is basic. To take thousands of exposures in a couple of minutes will require the process to be perfected. Then the mechanical shutter would likely be redundant. |
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jk
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Robert wrote:Yes it is like many things these days, skill and good technique is dumbed down so any 'monkey' can take the image or do the job. I see it in many different trades. |
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Eric
|
Robert wrote:You seem to have slightly missed my point... I was alluding to the Z7 being already as advanced as DSLRs, the potential for development is only to be guessed at but I believe if technology of camera design continues as it is and concerted development of the Z line continues, which I am sure it will, then there are some amazing cameras to come. That was really my point. We aint' nowhere yet, on step one of a long staircase. I probably made my point badly! LOLApologies Robert, I thought you were suggesting that because it was the first version it would be better to wait for the next iteration as improvements would be made. Whilst I agree that improvements will be made, given it's already 95?% up there with the best, the incremental changes next time are likely to be small. In fact, it's become quite commonplace for the improvements in subsequent camera iterations to be underwhelming. That being the case here, I would support buying a first version. Of course, one has to be 'in the market' for a new camera to take that plunge in the first place. Although I don't like the idea of taking video and letting software create the best image IT decides on, its arguably analogous to firing off shots like a machine gun and hoping we get a good one. If we are to be purists, we should be going back to the old principle of a taking a single shot 'at the decisive moment'. At the end of the day, I guess we just have to do what best suits our way of working. After all it's primarily just ourselves we are trying to please with the results ....whilst enjoying the process. |
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Robert
|
It's the tech aspect which attracted my attention, I agree about the machine gun approach. One of the issues astro photography throws into the process is air movement which is constantly shimmering, like heat haze. The video technique allows the occasional image to sneak through in a micro lull of air shimmy, this for individual stars or planets, not constellations or nebulae. I have just had a disastrous night, the conditions on Birker fell were poor so I decided to go down into Eskdale and see if we could find a location by the railway to get a nice Milky way shot but noting seemed to work, so we went off towards Hardknot, thinking we might set up near the summit but as we passed the Roman fort I hit a pothole with both n/s wheels, dinging the rims and resulting in deflation of both tyres, I swapped the front one for the spare, then quickly took the back wheel off and beat the rim back into shape with a nearby granite boulder, it stopped leaking so we set off back down with a very soft n/s back tyre. It soon heated up and regained some pressure, we pressed on back towards Ravenglass, there is a garage near the junction with the main road where I thought we might be able to re-inflate the tyre. We got to the garage, I couldn't get the tyre inflator to pump the tyre up, running out of coin fortunately Christopher spotted a button to press for flat tyres... Not a very good night. |
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Eric
|
Robert wrote:It's the tech aspect which attracted my attention, I agree about the machine gun approach.Ouch!! I can just imagine stories of ghostly clankings from a long lost Roman forge had anyone been in earshot. |
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Robert
|
Eric wrote:Ouch!! I can just imagine stories of ghostly clankings from a long lost Roman forge had anyone been in earshot. There were a couple of camper-vans not too far away! It was a bit loud... |
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jk
|
I hope you had your Legionnaires outfit on. I will look for stories about ghostly Roman soldiers in the hills. |
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Iain
|
jk wrote:I am sure that there will be a Z camera that is DX or some other designation e.g. T series. I think you are right with that JK |
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jk
|
As I mentioned before about the possibility of a Nikon Z series APS-C camera there is now a rumour. https://nikonrumors.com/2019/09/10/new-nikon-design-patent-for-the-grip-of-the-nikon-z-aps-c-mirrorless-camera.aspx/ |
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Iain
|
jk wrote:As I mentioned before about the possibility of a Nikon Z series APS-C camera there is now a rumour. Now that would be interesting. |
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chrisbet
|
It is interesting that since the days of roll film cameras the body shape has remained basically a rectangular box on the end of a cylindrical lens - with an EVF I guess you could have a pistol shaped body? |
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Eric
|
They seem to have increased the grip to make it easier to hold at arms length. Because without a viewfinder that's what we would have to do. A camera without a viewfinder, be that optical or electronic, is a non starter for me. |
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Robert
|
Perhaps this link might provide some impartial info and feedback? For those reluctant to hit a link with no obvious description, it's A Nikon Mirrorless Safari, with two Z bodies, by Thom Hogan http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/a-nikon-mirrorless-safari.html |
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jk
|
Interesting read of Thom's safari. Seems like he is happy as I am. I just wish there was an APS-C mirrorless with Nikon F mount. I have only found a couple of wrinkles with mirrorless. 1. Need to use the D8 (LiveView preview) switch on/off when I move between using flash and normal light. 2. Strong backlighting makes for silhouettes in EVF as it is influenced by the strong backlighting. 3. XQD cards are fine but I dont shoot video or big still sequences so I dont need crazy fast cards. I would like an adapter that allows me to use SD card in an adapter in the XQD slot. I am sure some clever Chinese company will make one in the next year or so! |
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chrishamer
|
Robert wrote:Perhaps this link might provide some impartial info and feedback? That was a really interesting read, thanks for flagging! |
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Iain
|
Your right Chris. I just prefer the dx for wildlife. |
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Iain
|
Interesting article from Thom, he seems happy with the Z's |
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Eric
|
Iain wrote:Interesting article from Thom, he seems happy with the Z'sI have a lot of time for Thom. He seems to get to the heart of the matter better and more honestly than others. For me though, there is a simple hurdle. I already have a D850. Yes it may be heavier than a Z7 but it doesn't need an extra grip to be comfortable in the hand and until lightweight Z tele lenses come along, the Zs have to use the same weight lenses as the D850. So why change? Even more relevant...why ADD a Z camera? Whist I agree that the D500 is on balance the best for wildlife (due to its DX factor and speed), I believe the D850's better noise control may have the edge in UK low lighting. I do note that the vast majority of Jeffs images are in bright sunlight. Maybe the answer is ....if the sun isn't out don't bother trying to get a good bird image. That way the noise issue is less relevant in camera choice. The D850 has the same feel good factor that the D3 had for me.....I always reach for it in preference to other options available. Although it's had limited use for wildlife, I've not seen the limitations JK mentioned, when compared to the D500. It MAY be good enough for all uses? It's a difficult call to make. For for me I have more interest in the Z6, as it offers less pixels and therefore slightly better noise control than the D850 not to mention smaller files that are more than adequate for 99.9% of my photography and the lighter package. The issue will be, when/if I decide to get one, is which DSLR to let go? If the D850 can equip itself adequately for my wildlife needs maybe the D500 goes. Deciding to part with the D850 for a Z6 would be a harder decision! So maybe the loser in the short term is the Z6? The status quo lasts a bit longer. |
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jk
|
One thing that is noticeable between D850 and Z7 is battery life. I get 350-500 images per battery on Z7, while on D850 this is over twice that in fact almost x3. It is the same battery being used. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:One thing that is noticeable between D850 and Z7 is battery life.After criticising the Fuji XT2 battery life I have mellowed somewhat as I realised that I rarely shoot more than 300 photos in a session these days. That being the case, the battery can be recharged afterwards, ready for the next day. As long as I have that discipline it shouldn't be an issue ...especially as I always have several spares in my bag anyway. I am trying hard to convince myself that there are no negatives with mirrorless. |
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jk
|
Eric wrote:After criticising the Fuji XT2 battery life I have mellowed somewhat as I realised that I rarely shoot more than 300 photos in a session these days. That being the case, the battery can be recharged afterwards, ready for the next day. As long as I have that discipline it shouldn't be an issue ...especially as I always have several spares in my bag anyway.I think that every technology has pros/cons but we need to make sure that we dont paint ourselves into a corner with moving to new technology unless there is a real advantage. With a DSLR it is difficult but not impossible to envisage how EV adjustments effect a scene without taking the image. This isnt the case with mirrorless as it is nearly WISYWIG. Mirrorless has advantages and disadvantages and are not mutually exclusive. Chose your tools (forget you wallet) and you have a great toolset but a weaker bank balance. You cant win every which way! |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:I think that every technology has pros/cons but we need to make sure that we dont paint ourselves into a corner with moving to new technology unless there is a real advantage.Have you been taking life coaching from my wife? |
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jk
|
Jan speaks good sense. I only point you back to her advice. Of course I am probably bad at taking my own advice. 😠|
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Jan speaks good sense. I only point you back to her advice. Of course I am probably bad at taking my own advice. ðŸ˜She reckons we need new double glazing (all round) and a new patio. So I won't be coming to you for your opinion.  |
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jk
|
Why new double glazing? They can re-gas current double glazed window panes, patio I cant comment on. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Why new double glazing? They can re-gas current double glazed window panes, patio I cant comment on.I built a conservatory in 1995 which has 3 patio doors. The glass rating is ....24years old! They are metal framed on wood surround. The wood is going home. The metal frames and glass rating mean hot in summer, cold in winter...  It was all a bit amateur. Robert will be holding his head in despair. The plans....  And we forgot to knock the old conservatory down before we started to build around it.  The patio was new then as well. But her ladyship reckons its time for a change.  Sorry guys serious fred drift |
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chrisbet
|
I built a two storey extension in 1987 with similar patio doors - they also are going home, together with a couple of window glazing units with moisture in them. I am slowly replacing all the windows in the house with modern units and they make a HUGE difference. Mrs wants french doors instead of the patio doors - I am trying to avoid that by saying there are other windows in greater need! At around £400 a window it is taking a while ... |
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jk
|
OK so new double glazed doors for the conservatory. Nothing wrong with that patio? I suggest that she paints it or regrouts it! That should keep her amused and you occupied 'supervising' from a distance. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:OK so new double glazed doors for the conservatory.You are absolutely right! I've just pressure washed it and taken off 24 years of grime. Even Jan thinks it doesn't look bad. Just need to repoint and seal it against the next 24years. Sobering thought....I will probably not be around to do it again!!!!  Unfortunately there's no escape from expenditure. The nails on our 80 year old roof are giving up the ghost ...keep losing slates. I'm getting a bit too decrepit for climbing on the roof to refit them. So a new roof is required. It's a BIG roof = mega bucks required. May have to come out of retirement to fund it.....or sell my Nikon gear. Not so much transition to mirrorless more like transition to cameraless. |
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jk
|
Well done. Yes roofs and tilers are expensive. Just had part of my roof replaced and converted toa dormer to enlarge the bathroom at my old house. As soon as the job is complete I will sell that house so I will have some savings again. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Well done.Do it quick. Prices stalled already....may start to drop in a few weeks time. |
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Eric
|
Suppose we should get back on topic. |
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jk
|
Yep, back on topic!  |
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chrishamer
|
Thought I'd share a random update on my side. I was in Italy the last few days with my dad, specifically in the Bologna / Modena region - touring all the supercar manufacturers. Anyhow, we ended up in Imola yesterday, turns out we lucked out and the Ferrari Challenge cup was racing - free to attend which was a nice bonus. So I had my first attempt at motorsports photos with the Z6. Now bearing in mind I only had the 24-70 on me - so totally the wrong lens I did learn some interesting things. 1. Extended high FPS mode is totally useless when trying to track objects... I thought the minuscule delay would be OK - it's not. So you are limited to 5FPS or so, which is a shame. 2. I found it WAY harder to get panning images, usually I have a hitrate of 20-30% but I think it was more like 5% - I can't put my finger on why, but it was interesting to see how different this was. This being said, for the rest of the trip this was the perfect camera, low light shots looked incredible, and the small-is size and ease of use meant I've come away with a lot of amazing photos to remember this trip by. |
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Eric
|
chrishamer wrote:Thought I'd share a random update on my side.That sort of sums up my experience with the Fuji mirrorless ...but I was trying to photograph birds flying by me. I came to the conclusion that under normal photographic situations you have more time to consider composition and that 'thinking time' albeit milliseconds, allows the camera to work at its slightly slower than DSLR pace. That said, there are plenty of people using mirrorless successfully for motorsport, birds in flight and other fast moving subject. The difference is they have learnt or at least 'bedded themselves into' how to manage this difference by dedicated practise on that subject. We can't be expected to pick up a camera on an infrequent basis and use it on a multiplicity of different subjects without misfiring. I was probably a little impetuous and unfair ditching the Fuji. The IQ when I got it right was excellent and I understand from JK the later iterations are better. I have said to many friends that I expect to return to mirrorless in 2020. The only question is whether it will be changeover in total or whether I will retain one of my DSLRs for specialised use .....until I learn to use it in all situations. Look forward to seeing some shots. |
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jk
|
I agree with Chris' observations and Eric's analysis of different uses and the needs for certain camera characteristics to meet these areas of use. I have for a long time asserted that if you want highest quality for every eventuality then there is a need to invest significant amounts of money to get this quality. This means that we go outside the 80/20 rule but go towards the idea of a tool for every job or the idealised search for the one perfect tool. There is no perfect camera only one that suits your current purpose. |
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