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| Dis-charge / Re-charge cells , is much Too much ?Rechargable cells | Rate Topic |
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| Posted by novicius: Tue Dec 2nd, 2014 21:23 | 1st Post |
| Can Dis/Re.charge damage cells ? Reason I ask is that they`re supposed to last One thousand cycles , so, what is your take on things , Dis/Re.charge Often is Good ? ... or a Hoax ? What do You do ?
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by Robert: Wed Dec 3rd, 2014 03:31 | 2nd Post |
| Not an authority but I do know there are different technologies of rechargeable battery, NiCad, LiIon and NiMH. As far as I understand it the NiCad are best discharged then re charged. The other two it's less important. I leave my MacBook pro plugged in almost continuously but allow it to discharge from time to time. I never turn it off unless I actually need to. It's over 4 years old now and the battery still seems as good as the day I bought the computer, If I leave it in it's case for a week, still turned on, it will still have enough charge to be used for a while. Much longer than that and it may turn itself off. My D200 batteries are always discharged before re-charging, Again I am still on my original Nikon batteries which still perform well. I bought my first D200 in August 2007, 7 years ago, although not in continuous use, they have had their fair share of use. My power tools get a lot of use, I almost always discharge then recharge those batteries. What I have found with the NiMH batteries is that one day they are good, the next they are bad, (rejected permanently by the charger) there does not seem to be a gradual reduction of capacity, which puzzles me. I have quite a lot of AA NiMH cells, the most recent batch being 2600 mAh. This latest batch have been the least reliable, failing while many of my early cells are still performing well, which has generally put me off the rechargeable AA cell except for flash guns. It would seem there is a distinct cut off point beyond which the battery is no longer capable of, or perhaps safe, to continue recharging. I know there is a ton of data about this on the internet but take some of it with large pinch of salt. Perhaps JK can shed some light on this?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Wed Dec 3rd, 2014 05:05 | 3rd Post |
| I agree with Robert's summing up of experiences with NiCads and NiMHs batteries. For Lion batteries it is recommended that you do not completely discharge the battery <5% as this can reduce its life. I generally charge my batteries use until the camera flashes or red lights the battery then recharge. I do not put through the discharge cycle at all. However using the NiMH batteries a discharge/recharge cycle may be beneficial.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by novicius: Wed Dec 3rd, 2014 16:50 | 4th Post |
Grateful for the replies ,now I know what `t do , thanks !
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by Ed Hutchinson: Sat Feb 14th, 2015 19:53 | 5th Post |
| Hi There The manufacturer of my ham radio hand held radios state that it is better to go through 3 charge re charge cycles when new then do what ever is needed ( these are LI-ion cells) Hope that helps Ed 
____________________ R.O.C.E.D. retired old cranky extremely dangerous! |
| Posted by jk: Sun Feb 15th, 2015 05:22 | 6th Post |
Ed Hutchinson wrote: Hi There I think you need an intelligent charger to do this for Lion cells.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by amazing50: Sun Feb 15th, 2015 10:54 | 7th Post |
| My Segway has Lion cells, about $3000CDN worth. It is left plugged in when not in use as per Mfg. even during the winter. The onboard charger puts a pulse through it about every 10 sec. In the spring the fully charged but unused cells will only give about 5 km. on their first run. After 3 or 4 chargings it will go about 15 km.
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by novicius: Sun Feb 15th, 2015 21:18 | 8th Post |
Now I am Confused.....with li-ion chargers/Cells , we do n`t have a choice... it`s all auto.. or I am missing something ?.. Tutorial Please 
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by jk: Mon Feb 16th, 2015 08:43 | 9th Post |
| Lion cells should be recharged with a charger that is designed for the battery in question. Or it needs to be an intelligent Lion battery charger that interrogates the battery and then uses the appropriate recharge profile for the battery. This is controlled by a small circuit that controls charge/discharge in the battery.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 15:58 | 10th Post |
| Li-Ion, not Lion, cells must NOT be deep discharged, they like to be used in the mid range, 20% to 90% and they can be recharged at what ever state is convenient so recharging from 80% isn't a problem neither is recharging from 5% or 95% but they need an intelligent charger that stops charging at 100%. Discharging to 0% will cause damage. I did a considerable amount of research to determine whether a computer with a Li-Ion battery could be stored and used onboard an aircraft. I determined that, with appropriate processes it could.
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| Posted by Robert: Thu Jul 26th, 2018 16:45 | 11th Post |
| JK is good at typo's! LOL Thanks for the info Geoff, there are so many takes on this. I have also done a lot of research on this, you have to be careful to amalgamate facts rather than opinions! There are a lot of opinions on the net on this subject. Not as many reliable facts. Once a battery has gone below a predetermined, critical voltage, NOT to zero, then it can become unstable and dangerous to attempt to re-charge it, that's why if a battery has gone below the critical voltage, the correct charger should refuse to charge it. My understanding of the gradual improvements to Li-Ion batteries is the membrane used to package the 'jam rolley-poly' of chemicals is thinner and more resistant to leakage, hence slight increase in capacity for a given cell and slower self discharge rate.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Fri Jul 27th, 2018 06:25 | 12th Post |
| Technically yes the batteries should be termed Li-Ion batteries but in current market speak (check Google) they are Lion batteries. So either term is probably useable. Been working with these batteries for a long time now and I have moved from the tagged cells to using the battery holders where I can exchange the individual 18650 cells and recharge them rather using sealed battery systems like I developed for D1/D1X/D2X. I cannot believe it is 15 years ago since I first did the initial conversions for people. Latest version of my how to conversion document. http://www.jmknights.net/photography/downloads/files/AltConv-EH4-battery-2010.pdf If Nikon had made slightly less compact (more space) battery compartment, e.g. those on Canons then I would have had a much easier to develop product. Reminder to all. Lion batteries tend to die after about 5 years use or 400-1000 recharges. It does depend on how you treat the batteries.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by GeoffR: Fri Jul 27th, 2018 13:05 | 13th Post |
Robert wrote: Once a battery has gone below a predetermined, critical voltage, NOT to zero, then it can become unstable and dangerous to attempt to re-charge it, that's why if a battery has gone below the critical voltage, the correct charger should refuse to charge it.Absolutely correct, and very expensive when a set of cells costs $64,000! Boeing reasoned, correctly in my opinion, that it was better to allow a complete discharge than have the battery die just short of an airport. A 787 costs rather more than $64,000.
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| Posted by jk: Fri Jul 27th, 2018 14:38 | 14th Post |
GeoffR wrote:Robert wrote:Well those spares or replacements are pretty expensive as well!Once a battery has gone below a predetermined, critical voltage, NOT to zero, then it can become unstable and dangerous to attempt to re-charge it, that's why if a battery has gone below the critical voltage, the correct charger should refuse to charge it.Absolutely correct, and very expensive when a set of cells costs $64,000! Boeing reasoned, correctly in my opinion, that it was better to allow a complete discharge than have the battery die just short of an airport. A 787 costs rather more than $64,000. How many cells in the set? Voltage and Amperage? Cant they recharge from the engines?
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by GeoffR: Fri Jul 27th, 2018 15:58 | 15th Post |
jk wrote: GeoffR wrote:Can't remember the details of the battery, 28V obviously but I need to find my notes for the rest. Once the cell voltage is below the minimum the charger shuts down and won't charge the battery. Doesn't matter what power source, Ground Power, APU or Engines, once discharged below minimum the cells are toast. It is one big battery and they, there are two, live in fire proof vaults vented overboard.
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| Posted by jk: Sat Jul 28th, 2018 02:44 | 16th Post |
GeoffR wrote:jk wrote:GeoffR wrote:Can't remember the details of the battery, 28V obviously but I need to find my notes for the rest. Once the cell voltage is below the minimum the charger shuts down and won't charge the battery. Doesn't matter what power source, Ground Power, APU or Engines, once discharged below minimum the cells are toast. It is one big battery and they, there are two, live in fire proof vaults vented overboard. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the information Geoff. These and the new polymer batteries promse much for electric power rather than fossil fuel engines but I still think that Hydrogen fuel cells are the way if we can overcome the safety/explosion issues.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jul 28th, 2018 03:15 | 17th Post |
| Necessity being the mother of invention, something will come along. A lot of very clever things came from the original space exploration projects. The first cars were horse, then steam, which gave way to petrol and eventually diesel. Perhaps we go back to horse!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sat Jul 28th, 2018 07:05 | 18th Post |
Robert wrote: Necessity being the mother of invention, something will come along.Well actually, Horse, Steam, Diesel, Petrol. The first Diesel type engine was invented in 1802 but the Otto cycle (4 stroke cycle) wasn't introduced until 1861. The dates at which each was adopted into a road vehicle may, of course be different.
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| Posted by novicius: Sat Jul 28th, 2018 14:35 | 19th Post |
| Here`s how to recussitate Nihm rechargeables... http://www.robgalbraith.com/content_page90f8.html?cid=7-4419-4424 Could it be done with Li-ion`s ?
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jul 28th, 2018 15:59 | 20th Post |
novicius wrote:Could it be done with Li-ion`s ? Nnoooooo Please, don't do it! This is a trick I use with lead acid batteries which modern chargers often won't re-charge. Never, ever try to recharge an Li-Ion battery by forcing it to increase Voltage. They are incredibly sensitive to Voltage. Without going into the chemistry that would be a sure fire way of burning your house down. And another thing, if by some misfortune you do experience a fire with an Li-Ion battery douse it with water, or submerge it to cool the cells. Fortunately, with batteries like the Nikon camera batteries, they are protected internally by clever circuitry which should refuse any attempt to force charge the battery if a direct connection is made.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Jul 28th, 2018 16:24 | 21st Post |
| Noooooooo, please dont! Very dangerous.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 07:41 | 22nd Post |
Robert wrote: novicius wrote: The recommended action for a Li-ion battery fire is to cool the battery, or device, with water. There is no Lithium metal in a Li-ion battery. The fire risk is from the organic solvent that is the electrolyte not from any lithium metal. The reason for submerging in water is to cool the battery and prevent additional cells from becoming involved. This is what will happen if there is a fire in a phone or other device with a Li-ion battery onboard an aircraft. Watch the right hand video on this page Lithium battery advice: CAA. Note that using an extinguisher to knock down the fire will NOT cool the battery and reignition remains possible. The video shows the use of a BCF (Halon) extinguisher which remains legal for in-flight use.If a camera battery starts to smoke, dropping it in a sink full of water is probably the quickest, easiest and safest action.
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 08:17 | 23rd Post |
| Thank you for correcting me on that Geoff. I will edit my post. I had been under the impression that water was bad on Li-Ion batteries, we have too many technologies!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 08:28 | 24th Post |
Robert wrote: Thank you for correcting me on that Geoff.Unfortunately Robert many people see the word Lithium and remember the experiment with Sodium and water from school days. Unfortunately they don't do any research to find that the Lithium in a Li-ion battery is in the form of a Lithium salt, dissolved in an organic solvent to make the electrolyte. Finding the firefighting information for Li-ion batteries is much harder, indeed had my recurrent fire training not covered it I would probably still be looking. The advice given in other web sites is valid, evacuate the area etc. but none mentions the use of copious quantities of water, I have no idea why.
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| Posted by novicius: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 10:18 | 25th Post |
Robert wrote:novicius wrote: Thank You Robert , for the Informative explanation , which means that I will go ahead with Replacing the cells in some old EN-EL4a `s ..instead of playing Dr.FOOL.. 
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by novicius: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 10:26 | 26th Post |
GeoffR wrote:Robert wrote:Thank you for correcting me on that Geoff.Unfortunately Robert many people see the word Lithium and remember the experiment with Sodium and water from school days. Unfortunately they don't do any research to find that the Lithium in a Li-ion battery is in the form of a Lithium salt, dissolved in an organic solvent to make the electrolyte. Finding the firefighting information for Li-ion batteries is much harder, indeed had my recurrent fire training not covered it I would probably still be looking. The advice given in other web sites is valid, evacuate the area etc. but none mentions the use of copious quantities of water, I have no idea why. Thank You Geof , for Clearing-Up this matter. Li-ion`s were Unchartered territory to me.. Like Robert says ; Too Many technologies.. 
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 10:44 | 27th Post |
novicius wrote: Too Many technologies..I don't think it is too many technologies, it is a preponderance of information on the internet and a shortage of trusted sites. I find the ICAO, IATA and UK CAA sites to be extremely useful and trustworthy. For many things relating to technology aviation authorities are likely to have good information or will link to authoritative sites. They have to offer good accurate information, lives depend upon it. The NTSB, AAIB, ATSB and other accident investigation bodies have good web sites too but they are harder to navigate unless you know where to look. Incidents, such as Lithium ion battery fires, are thoroughly investigated and the technologies researched. The report on this page ET-AOP has some excellent information on Li-ion batteries.
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 11:11 | 28th Post |
| Will read that link later, many thanks.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by novicius: Sun Jul 29th, 2018 22:06 | 29th Post |
GeoffR wrote:novicius wrote:Too Many technologies..I don't think it is too many technologies, it is a preponderance of information on the internet and a shortage of trusted sites. I find the ICAO, IATA and UK CAA sites to be extremely useful and trustworthy. For many things relating to technology aviation authorities are likely to have good information or will link to authoritative sites. They have to offer good accurate information, lives depend upon it. I did read the Report ... But at the end of the day , it was caused by a Short-Circuit.,...I have seen the leads of a regular A C Lead Fused/Welded together due to a Short circuit... I have read hair raising stories about Li-Ion`s ..I also read they`re rather " sensitive " .. As I am about to " refurbish " some EN-EL4 batt. holders re-using the original electronics from NIKON ,and I`m looking into Sanyo / L G cells...what is your take on this.. My question is :... Am I on the " right " track...or should I look into how much Robert would quote for rebuilding a burned down house.
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 04:35 | 30th Post |
| Have checked back through this thread, I can't find which battery it is you are having trouble with. I recently (Feb 2018) re-celled a D3 battery, EN-EL4, new original EN-EL4's are about £150 in the UK, I can't afford that, ideally I want six cells minimum based on experience in the cold in Scotland, trying to photograph the Milky Way. I now have three good and one iffy battery. I am planning to create a power pack to power the camera in those conditions this next winter, that will avoid having to change batteries in the middle of a time lapse session and should be capable of powering the camera all night. I decided to re-cell one of my casings of a fairly old EN-EL4, it was extremely challenging, I converted two D1 batteries many years ago to 18650 cells. That was difficult because the casings had to be modified, the cells would not fit in the casings but ten years on they were still good. I use the 18650 cells in my dedicated Nichia UV 365nm lamp which I built. I thought I wrote up the EN-EL4 project here... it uses three 18650 dumb cells, meaning the cells are unprotected. The protection is in the EN-EL4 casing and includes a chip which controls the balance between the cells which are NOT in series. The cells have to be balanced, again I don't want to go into the deeper reasons but it's another of the issues involved with this technology, cell balancing. The output from cells varies at differing rates as the cells age, the output from the cells has to be very similar otherwise one starts pushing another, causing overheating. Cell balancing of Li-Ion cells is critical and probably the biggest challenge to creating large capacity batteries such as Geoff mentions for aircraft. There is no room in the plastic casing for link wires, I had to use 0.007" copper foil about 8mm wide, which gives a cross sectional area of about 1.2mm/square area. The original conductors are 1.2mm sq cross sectional area. Anything less will cause resistance and inhibit the camera shutter. I found that out with the D1 project. The PCB attaches to the cells at one end, the soldering is tricky, zero space for blobs. Remember, you are working with fully charged, live cells which must never be short circuited. I glued the cells together with Gorilla foaming glue and they sat on a shelf for ten days until the glue fully hardened and I was in a calm mood to do the soldering.    I used tagged cells because soldering to the can is a big no-no, the chemicals are in a plastic bag, tightly rolled up like a jam rolly-poly, soldering the can would likely melt the plastic and start a fire. The tags have to be spot welded on with a specialised spot welder, I was going to make one but the components for the welder would cost well over £100 so I baulked at that, I don't have plans to repeat this project. The cells were about £23 for the set of three, when I checked the price of a good complete replacement pattern battery from Germany it was £21. I would search long and hard for pattern batteries on line before even contemplating re-building a casing with new cells. I will try to find my article on the re-build but unless you are very skilled with soldering and able to source the right bits, including copper foil and tagged cells, which came from RS Components in UK, I would steer well clear of DIY in this case. I definitely won't be doing another. Re-building your house would be nice but Eric has me booked for a bungalow refurb in Yorkshire this fall, maybe... And I am still not finished on my own house yet! What about a tent? Edit: I have found the thread I compiled earlier in the year on re-celling an EN-EL4 battery: http://nikondslr.uk/view_topic.php?id=1496&forum_id=22
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 06:01 | 31st Post |
| Novicius, check this link out and there are loads more... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MTEC-Kamera-Akku-Batterie-2400mAh-ersetzt-Nikon-EN-EL14-EN-EL4a-Battery-Pack/372215245138?hash=item56a9c1e952%3Ag%3AMfcAAOSwImRaeYsg&LH_PrefLoc=3&_sop=2&_sacat=0&_nkw=EN-EL4a+battery&_from=R40&rt=nc It really isn't worth the time, trouble or risk to rebuild your own batteries. I wouldn't do it again and I am off the scale when it comes to doing it myself to save a cent.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 07:43 | 32nd Post |
| Robert, how did you get around the charge cycle counter? Were you able to reset the counter so that the camera sees it as New?
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 08:36 | 33rd Post |
| I didn't... I naively thought that doing a refresh charge with the MH22 would have done the trick... Wrong! I expect the more technically adept would have been able to access the eprom and re-set it but that's well outside my skill range/pay grade! I live in hope that it doesn't switch itself off. I am looking at this seller, have just enquired if they are 2200mAh or the 1800 as shown in the image. They are just down the road from me in Preston, so if I have any bother I can go knocking on their door. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322321339566?ul_noapp=true The price is right, it may be the same product I bought from Germany a couple of years ago. They are doing OK apart from in severe cold. Well over 1000 exposures in normal temperature less than 200 exposures in -8C with 30 second exposures, no low ISO noise reduction and an interval of ~40 seconds between exposure releases.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 10:45 | 34th Post |
| Robert, better get a couple of extras in case you take on my D3S. It awaits you. I will bring to UK in September.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 11:01 | 35th Post |
| I think like RAM, you can never have too many batteries. I have always fitted the largest, heaviest duty battery I can, to all my cars, learnt that from my digger days on cold mornings.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by novicius: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 11:44 | 36th Post |
| Re-building your house would be nice but Eric has me booked for a bungalow refurb in Yorkshire this fall, maybe... And I am still not finished on my own house yet! What about a tent? Well,since my daughter has dropped the idea of camping , I can have hers , so I`m catered for And Many Thanks for Your Informative article Robert , it is Appreciated. I have allready purchased four ( third party )new EN-EL4 last year, for a reasonable fee from two different vendors from Germany I think , so far they `ve been holding up well. But I do have several original Nikon EN-EL4 , those came with my secondhand purchased D3S and D3X , they`re on 2 and 3 , so in some time from now I will replace the cells with new ones. I hate to discard stuff that can get fixed , and having a background in electronics , a Refurb of something like putting in new cells should be overcomeable . Apart from the Fun of " doing it meself ", there are now cells with a Higher capacity....3400 mah would you believe,but those are rated at 3.6 volt,and the originals are at 3.7 volts. You having observed the Parallel coupling is Interesting , so with a difference of only 0,1 volt , I am tempted to get those High capacity cells. All I need now is to build a Lightning deflector on my daughter`s tent, any pointers ..???
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 12:33 | 37th Post |
| I would avoid the 3400mAh cells for two reasons, firstly that is an exaggerated vendor claim, only achievable under special conditions and secondly I doubt the existing Nikon control units would be tolerant or work well with the the difference in Voltage. I would stick with known high quality cells from Samsung or I think, Panasonic. There are I believe only three manufacturers of cells apart from the unknown quality coming from China, I realise the cells I am getting will be Chinese but with complete batteries all the components will match, re-celling a Nikon brand battery will involve mixing unknowns. The original Nikon cells were Samsung I think I showed that in my thread from February. Anyway, good luck, just be careful, very careful. I understand the challenge aspect but in this case I think prudence is a big factor too, not to mention the economics!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 14:29 | 38th Post |
| The EN-EL4 is rated at 11.1V, the EN-EL18 is rated at 10.8V but an MH26, with an adaptor, can be used to charge an EN-EL4. To all intents and purposes an EN-EL4 and an EN-EL18 are electrically very similar, if not identical. I suspect the MH22 and MH26 are equally similar under the skin.
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| Posted by novicius: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 17:19 | 39th Post |
Robert wrote:I would avoid the 3400mAh cells for two reasons, firstly that is an exaggerated vendor claim, only achievable under special conditions and secondly I doubt the existing Nikon control units would be tolerant or work well with the the difference in Voltage. Yes, I am skeptical about vendor`s claims , on the other hand , lower voltage usually results in higher amps. There are reports about dodgy third party Batts. that do not deliver as promised, including my own experiences with 3rd.party EN-4 batts.( D1 series) , after only a few chargings they gave up..opened one up and saw what I believe t` be Nicads !!...replaced with Fujitsu white Nihm`s and All is well now. I may have been lucky with the 3rd.party EN-EL4`s I purchased last year,but can not get those anymore...so, another reason for having a go at it myself.
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by novicius: Mon Jul 30th, 2018 17:31 | 40th Post |
GeoffR wrote:The EN-EL4 is rated at 11.1V, the EN-EL18 is rated at 10.8V but an MH26, with an adaptor, can be used to charge an EN-EL4. To all intents and purposes an EN-EL4 and an EN-EL18 are electrically very similar, if not identical. I suspect the MH22 and MH26 are equally similar under the skin. Yes, that`s what I thought, and as far as I can gather , Li-ions drop in Voltage like Nicads / Nihm`s /Alkalines , and Robert`s observation of Parallel coupling would only result in a difference of 0,1 V which would be negligible as I expect the electronics would incorporate a voltage regulator , unless I am utterly mistaken?? What are Your thoughts on this ?
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 04:52 | 41st Post |
| All batteries have a drop in terminal voltage when on load, Li-ions are no different. I suspect that the EN-EL4 is quoted open circuit and the EN-EL18 on load. The difference is 2.7% well within an acceptable voltage range for the vast majority of electronic devices. A voltage regulator may well be incorporated but the motors won't be adversely affected by changes in voltage. With a battery voltage around 11 Volts, and I suspect most of the electronics runs at 5 or 6 Volts, regulation would be required to provide the correct voltage to the electronics.
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| Posted by Robert: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 05:36 | 42nd Post |
| I have an external AC power supply for the D3, it has output >12V. Somewhere about 13.8 Volts I think from memory. I just can't put my hands on it right now to check. â˜¹ï¸ A fully charged EN EL4 having stood for a few days I checked just now reads 12.65V, another battery fresh off the charger reads 12.5V. The actual cell voltage is determined by the chemistry of the battery. It's the capacity and flow which can vary according to design. The more active chemicals you can stuff into a given cell the more capacity the battery will have, within certain limits. Prompted by this thread I have ordered an EN-EL4a from the eBay supplier in Preston, he answered an enquiry promptly and was helpful so I ordered one.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by novicius: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 10:53 | 43rd Post |
GeoffR wrote:All batteries have a drop in terminal voltage when on load, Li-ions are no different. I suspect that the EN-EL4 is quoted open circuit and the EN-EL18 on load. The difference is 2.7% well within an acceptable voltage range for the vast majority of electronic devices. That is what I was thinking about , thank You for the confirmation Geof. The Electronics running on a Particular Lower Voltage , would that not be Indicated by the recommended Flash-Voltage , was it 6 Volts and No-more that Nikon specifies for their Digital camera`s , or Fried electronics would be the result...therefor rendering elder Flashes Obsolete. Someone told me , that there is a Difference between Hot shoe output vs. Flash-nipple on a Digital camera, the flas-nipple being an El.magnetic switch capable of handling several Hundred volts..Not willing to put his sayings to the test , Risking a camera-funeral... Could it be true nonetheless ??
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by novicius: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 11:17 | 44th Post |
Robert wrote:I have an external AC power supply for the D3, it has output >12V. Somewhere about 13.8 Volts I think from memory. I just can't put my hands on it right now to check. â˜¹ï¸ Such are my experiences as well, Alkalines fresh off the factory can even show 1.8 Volts. " Prompted by this thread I have ordered an EN-EL4a "...was that a subtle way of saying that we are of Bad Influence to you , forcing you to part with your Hard Earned cash ... What brand of EN_EL4a is it , and what are the specs.,..and how much incl. freight ?
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by Robert: Tue Jul 31st, 2018 12:55 | 45th Post |
| I had been dithering for a while, I wanted to get more from the previous German supplier but they aren't expecting any more, soon. I am not keen on eBay but sometime you must. If I can I buy direct. This thread reminded me I needed to get at least another, will use this one then if it's OK, maybe a second. That would give me five good batteries and one tired one. Enough for my needs I think. This is a link to the eBay seller and item. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322321339566?ul_noapp=true
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 02:01 | 46th Post |
novicius wrote: GeoffR wrote:The flash trigger voltage is nothing to do with the supply voltage for the camera electronics. Flash trigger voltage is determined by the design of the flashgun, older flashguns trigger the flash tube supply directly, newer flashguns trigger that electronically via an isolator. The reason for camera manufacturers specifying a low voltage trigger is that there are accessory contacts in the hot shoe and putting 300V on those would fry the electronics (they are for TTL flash control etc.). This can happen when a flashgun is mounted in a charged condition, always switch off your flash before connecting it to the camera. There is generally only one switch on the shutter with the PC socket and Hot shoe in parallel but there may also be isolators in the circuit so that an excessive voltage takes out the isolator not the shutter actuated switch.
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| Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 02:19 | 47th Post |
| In the past we had long discussions about strobe voltage. I have a list somewhere with all the claimed voltages for different makes of flash and the specified tolerated values for various cameras. I agree it's entirely separate from camera battery voltage.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 05:12 | 48th Post |
| Camera hoteshoe or PC socket voltages are derived from the shorting of the strobe. So in reality are strobe features. Like Geoff says they are unrelated to battery in camera or strobe. I have a link of the strobe trigger voltages http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html Most Nikons are OK up to 350v. I am told by Nikon Teck Support UK. However best check your camera and strobe in the lists. If you really want to be sure then get a Wein protector. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/245292-REG/Wein_W990560_Safe_Sync_Hot_Shoe_to.html I have one of the original Wein protectors and I used it with my Nikons and my old Bowens Quad 4000 as that had a high trigger voltage.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by novicius: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 17:17 | 49th Post |
| Gentlemen , Thank You All for this Great Advice...and especially about that WEIN shoe adapter , did not know about it`s existence. Learn something new every day 
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 09:00 | 50th Post |
It is good to share. 
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| This is topic ID = 1134 | ||
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