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| Another thought on Photoshop CC | Rate Topic |
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| Posted by TomOC: Fri May 31st, 2013 18:54 | 1st Post |
| I was reading a few of the articles on the June 17 roll out of the Photoshop CC. I did come up with one slightly ameliorating facet of the offer... If you presently have PS 5 or 6 standard... You must upgrade now to get the $9.99 per month subscription (Photoshop only) ( $120 for the next year ) but that really is a better deal than it might sound like. You not only get the "new and improved" version but that version will include all the features that presently are only in PS extended. I'm still vehemently opposed to forcing us to subscribe, but just saying... It does have more in it if you had the standard version in the past...
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 02:38 | 2nd Post |
| I think I read that one as well. It is only cost efficient in the first year. Thereafter the price is $19.95/month or whatever Adobe want to charge.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 03:18 | 3rd Post |
| That's right, but even so, there is still some advantage for the standard user getting the extended...diminishes over time, but some added value. I wonder how much this will bring down adobe's revenues. I think it will have significant impact the first year for sure.
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 03:18 | 4th Post |
| My understanding is that this is not anti piracy move. Adobe acknowledge CC can be cracked just as readily as CS was. They SAY it's to provide a better service but then they would. I can see running CS and CC alongside would be more complex but also rationalising the product lineup does make sense. For now at least LightRoom and Elements remain outright licences. Perhaps this separation might allow Adobe to enhance them a bit by adding layers and actions? Maybe not...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 06:14 | 5th Post |
| Elements 11 has Layers already but now allows the running of Actions but not the editing of them. I am sure there are some small other limitations but more and more Elements seems to be the product of choice for non-professional use. I think I might renew my Elements 6 license when Elements 12 comes out.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 11:49 | 6th Post |
jk wrote:I think I might renew my Elements 6 license when Elements 12 comes out. I think that attitude is typical of most users and probably why Adobe has developed CC!!! While I have reservations about some of Apple's policies they seem to be able to make billions$ from reasonably priced software and regular updates of software which is every bit as complex as the Adobe suite.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 14:45 | 7th Post |
Robert wrote:My understanding is that this is not anti piracy move. I don't think it matters what adobe says about why they changed...they lie...the reason is to trap you into a stream of revenue whether you want it or not. If they offered both, there would be no CC. It is probably a good idea for a couple of thousand really sophisticated graphic designers and a raw deal for everyone else...and adobe will regret it as Capture One, OnOne apps, even ACDsee come on strong with new and better editing apps and adobe falls into a position of irrelevancy !!!! I believe they had a lock on this market and have blown it. And as a consequence the photo app market is fragmenting and instead of one app like photoshop, we will be using a variety of apps that work together well and each do singular things better than any all-in-one app can or does. Think about it - Media Pro, Photo Mechanic, Perfect Photo Effects, Photo Tools, Perfect Layers (made in heaven for you LightRoom users), Lyn or Fastone for quick viewing and converting, even NIK (though I suspect that google will kill them) all can work together and pretty much replace Photoshop if you want it to. I don't want to, but I really really don't like the subscription concept, so I'm going to try it.
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 17:16 | 8th Post |
Why? I dont understand. I am voting with my wallet. No more Photoshop upgrades. Lightroom 5 will need to be great. I have purchased a copy of Acorn Editor for $30. It has all the features I need except Actions and support for Add-ins. They are already considering how to do a similar feature to Actions in Acorn in less than 5 days since I made the request for the functionality. I like!
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 1st, 2013 19:36 | 9th Post |
I didn't state my intentions clearly at all...I don't like having to use all the other apps exclusively  but I am going to try that!I definitely hate being forced to subscribe to anything!!!!!
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Ed Matusik: Wed Jun 5th, 2013 17:33 | 10th Post |
| I can't testify for anyone else, but Adobe seems to be the Best editing engine available. Hence, I've subscribed to one year's worth of CC7 to see if I want to continue using this system.
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| Posted by jk: Wed Jun 5th, 2013 18:25 | 11th Post |
| Well if I was in USA at present I would start to look at the special deals and end of line sales at EggHead, CompUSA, MicroCentre and the like so I could get a cheap extra copy of CS6. In fact if any one in USA sees a cheap copy about $150 then please buy one for me ! I will send money to you by PayPal.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Thu Jun 6th, 2013 14:06 | 12th Post |
| Ed- I agree that it is the best all-in-one app, but there are a growing number of apps that do specific things better, if not as conveniently, and Adobe runs the risk of losing so much market share to them that they go into a spiral that takes them out of the game...
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Ed Matusik: Thu Jun 6th, 2013 14:43 | 13th Post |
| I'm sure there are many software developers striving to upset Adobe's market position and reputation, but, at least for me, I'll wait to replace what I know works best until the remarks made for alternative software are along the lines of, "works better than Adobe and doesn't require a lifetime subscriptiuon." And, oh yes, there aren't any prolonged copyright suits against the top competitor.
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| Posted by TomOC: Thu Jun 6th, 2013 17:00 | 14th Post |
| Ed- I didn't state it clearly... There already are apps that do specific tasks better than adobe, just not all in one app, so not as conveniently. So already, the subscription is for convenience not better quality.
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Robert: Thu Jun 6th, 2013 18:12 | 15th Post |
| This is the wheel coming full circle I think. I remember in the early days having several word processors, each had their strengths and weaknesses. It was common to open a document in each application to do specific aspects of the process, then eventually into Pagemaker to send for printing. The trouble is Adobe have been buying up these specialised software houses and incorporating each as a 'new' feature of Photoshop over the years. Not just Adobe, all the big names have been doing it. Bibble has just been sucked up by Corel and then they have ruined it stopped further development. I think we should be supporting the small specialised software producers, that may encourage or enable them to stay independent. Once they are sucked up they become embedded and lost to us unless we pay the ransom to Adobe. Ransom it is because few if any of us would voluntarily upgrade any of our software at each and every update. Most of us find every other or even every third release quite sufficient because many of the added features like for example content aware fill, we already have from the independent developer who created it, before Adobe snapped it up to enhance their next 'upgrade'. If you didn't upgrade at every update then the new regime will be very much more expensive, like about 3 times more I think. (I haven't done the math) If you did upgrade every time then I think there may be a slight saving. The plus side is of course you are always using the very latest software with constant updates. The question is how often do you actually use these 'new features' and are they relevant to your needs. Because if you are not using all the new features then you are paying the higher price for nothing.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by TomOC: Thu Jun 6th, 2013 18:17 | 16th Post |
| Robert- That's exactly what makes me nuts. I would skip lots of upgrades except for the required raw codes in ACR...but after this last debacle, I found there are lots of raw converters that are much quicker to upgrade than adobe and some of them are actually significantly better... So why upgrade at all?
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Robert: Thu Jun 6th, 2013 18:41 | 17th Post |
| Well yes of course RAW conversion is very important to us. I don't know where we are with the Nikon software which is what we *should* be using. last I heard it was slow and worse on a Mac. That was where Bibble was always supreme, they prided themselves on being early to the party with the RAW converters for the latest cameras. Presumably that is no longer the case. That is what you get with independent software. corporations are too slow and cumbersome They have to have so many meetings to justify middle management existence that by the time they act all the customers have gone elsewhere.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 03:30 | 18th Post |
TomOC wrote: Robert- Interesting comment Tom. Which ones have you found?. It might be useful for us to pool our knowledge here as then it is easy for other to make choices that fit their needs. I personally have the following available for use: Bibble5/Aftershot Pro PhaseOne Capture Pro 7 Lightroom 4.4 ACR 7.4 (dont need the latest 8.1 as it offers support for cameras that I dont have/use) Acorn Editor Apple Aperture Ichikawa SilkyPix RAW Converter. In addition if you are on Mac and Windows OSes then these have a rudimentary RAW converter in as well that is linked to some software. I know that there are some others available that I have tested, but I dont personally use any more, such as: Corel PaintShop Pro x12 AccuRAW DCRAW
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Ed Matusik: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 08:32 | 19th Post |
Robert wrote: Well yes of course RAW conversion is very important to us. I don't know where we are with the Nikon software which is what we *should* be using. last I heard it was slow and worse on a Mac. I thought about NIK software too Robert, but didn't they just sell something to Google? I have the original Capture, but never bothered to upgrade to the current version. By the way, Adobe has Lightroom on its list of downloads for CC. We haven't downloaded anything from the CC site yet, as we have CS6 Production Premium on our computer and for the time being, it's identical to what's on the cloud site. I'd be interested to see if putting together an aggregate of separate software offerings for various companies is price-competitive to just subscribing to Adobe's Photoshop on the cloud. Also, how much learning and trial and error would it take to concatenate separate programs to give the identical result from photoshop? P.S., I do regularly upgrade my windows codec from Nikon's site so I can see NEF files even with Microsoft image software.
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| Posted by Eric: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 15:24 | 20th Post |
TomOC wrote:Robert- Hate to say so, but I have been banging on for ages about this. Why upgrade from a software package that does MORE than most of us ever need? I have operated professionally with CS3 since it came out. I have CS6 on the same computer but I invariably go to the devil I know. Familiarity with your software is far more important than having the latest bells and whistles. Sorry...it's a mugs game chasing upgrades when you don't fully utilise the package you have. The ONLY reason for upgrading CS (apart from any speed improvement) is to keep ACR compatibility....which is a feeble reason, borne of Adobe greed. So I am all for using an independent raw converter...but then work in CS.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 16:01 | 21st Post |
| Agree with Eric. I is another reason to walk away from Adobe! They are NOT listening to their customers. There have been numerous requests over the years for ACR to be a single stand along software which it could be very easily. They have decided they now best and will pay the proce for not listening! Well PirateBay does listen and does it better. Whilst I dont agree in principle about the use of software that you havent paid for I do also object to be taken as a mug and those big corporates hat purchases softwares to remove competition. Guilty parties....... Adobe, Corel, Microsoft. There is a saying that says 'if you live by the sword then you die by he sword', there is a parallel, if you are greedy and dont listen to your customer because you are sole concerned with profit and monoploy then beware there are always people who will outsmart you. Competition is healthy and listening to customers makes them return time and time again. I say again.... Adobe forget about my Adobe Id as I will NOT EVER buy anymore software or upgrades from you until you unbundle ACR from Photoshop. Also I WILL NEVER EVER BUY you Creative Cloud product set. I DO NOT RENT, I BUY.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 16:02 | 22nd Post |
| I agree with Eric...it is all a blackmail tied to ACR. ACR is no longer the requirement it once was. I came across a number of raw converters when adobe was so slow to update ACR for the fuji x cameras. Unfortunately, I have not bought a Nikon new enough to need other apps - the last I bought was the D800 and that was quite recently. In addition to the items that JK listed, I have found and use: Silkypix (free for fuji and paid for other raw formats) Free ware RAW CONVERTER Raw Photo Processor (RPP) Apple Preview Raw photo converter Xn view These are only Mac apps, if you do a web search on RAW CONVERTER, you will find dozens for windows and mac (from $15 to $150 with trials). Silkypix is really one of the very best output apps but it takes some getting used to - worth the effort, I think. Once converted - a number of apps can do most editing: Snapseed is one of my favorites Plugins are more important to me than just the PS editing: NIK plugins all work with aperture as well as LR and Ps about 6 months ago, I started using OnOne Perfect Photo Suite - this works as a plugin to PS, LR and Aperture and also runs as a standalone. The standalone is better in some ways than PS. Perfect layers is much simpler and I more powerful than PS layers and can only be used in the standalone mode, so I find myself using the whole app as much as PS already. Of course Capture One is probably the primary alternative for many, but I really don't like any of the apps that require a catalog (Cap one and LR). The one major impediment long term is what file format to use... I've not listened well when some of you ranted against PSD files in favor of DNG or TIF and now I have all my files as PSD. So far this isn't a problem opening old files but I'm toying with changing all of my new files to TIF only...we'll see. Keep in mind that this is still pretty theoretical...CS6 is still on my machine and as long as I can convert raw files from nikon and fuji with SOME app, I can edit them in PS and/or PPS and I'm right where I am today. I have to believe that a few of the adobe competitors will ramp up in the coming months - competition will be good for us and adobe has sure invited it. Tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 16:04 | 23rd Post |
| Good points, Tom. I agree.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 16:05 | 24th Post |
| Tom re PSD files if you try Acorn Editor that will open PSD files saved in compatibility mode.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 16:17 | 25th Post |
| JK- That looks like a nice app for $49 but I don't really need it yet .It does raw conversion, too but quite slowly. Tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Fri Jun 7th, 2013 16:49 | 26th Post |
| I got mine for $19 but that was good timing! Yes it is slow but everything is compared with Bibble5/AfterShot Pro which is about twice or three times as fast as Photoshop ACR and Lightroom.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 04:54 | 27th Post |
| I remember the days when I never changed camera bodies for years. I experimented with new film stock when it came out, as this was a minor investment. Most of my money was channelled into getting better and better quality glass. Today, the quality of DSLRs has approached the same point (where we no longer need to change bodies) and the minimal cost of digital 'film' means we could again plough money into glass.....but for software. THAT has become the money hole....if we let it!
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 10:04 | 28th Post |
| This is one area where I am particularly concerned about the developments of operating systems. Perfectly satisfactory software which does all I need and more is rendered useless by updates to the operating system, under the cloak of increased performance and improved usability/stability. The OS is perfectly capable of running emulation software to enable legacy and other incompatible software to run on even the newest systems but the developers of the OS's intentionally withdraw that emulation software, which forces users to upgrade what is otherwise perfectly adequately usable software from running. Rosetta was withdrawn at Lion I think, which made a lot of my perfectly OK software redundant. The developers provide for other operating systems but prevent the installation of older systems on newer hardware. Rant/
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 10:39 | 29th Post |
| Yes indeed Robert. I have had to update my OSX 10.6.8 to 10.8.3 to get some of the latest RAW updates for OSX, that is ridiculous! That also applies for some of the latest software it needs 10.7.x or better!
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 13:07 | 30th Post |
Eric wrote:I remember the days when I never changed camera bodies for years. I experimented with new film stock when it came out, as this was a minor investment. Most of my money was channelled into getting better and better quality glass. An interesting side note to that... In the RangeFinderForum, the folks who use film generally don't even bother to mention the camera body in the shooting data, just the lens. Of course the digital folks have all the EXIF info
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 13:09 | 31st Post |
Ed Matusik wrote:Robert wrote:Well yes of course RAW conversion is very important to us. I don't know where we are with the Nikon software which is what we *should* be using. last I heard it was slow and worse on a Mac. Ed - Except for Snapseed, NIK really isn't a standalone, but it is one of the great plugin packages and now is very reasonably priced by Google.
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 13:11 | 32nd Post |
Robert wrote:This is one area where I am particularly concerned about the developments of operating systems. I agree that that can be frustrating, Robert but that is one of the characteristics of apple that I actually like. You can only support legacy apps for a certain amount of time without compromising the current OS...that's the Windows conundrum - support EVERYTHING and you have a real pot lucky soup on your hands.
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Eric: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 14:13 | 33rd Post |
TomOC wrote:Robert wrote: If you don't need updated software that's OS dependant....why update OS in first place? Does it really give THAT amount of benefit? I still run Windows XP and CS3 and it still beats me...it ain't broken, so why meddle?
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 16:19 | 34th Post |
Eric wrote:TomOC wrote: Aside of other considerations for me Lion was compelling, the ease of use for using multiple computers at multiple locations was exactly what I needed. Contrary to my expectations the iCloud has been a dream come true. I still feel too much stuff is being 'dumbed down' but I am getting used to that I suppose At that time the only software which Lion really killed for me was MS Office 2003. I have spreadsheets which I rely on and many Word documents which I need to be able to access. I have found with some limitations that Apples iWork can replace the functionality of Office. But I was fortunate to be using Adobe CS5 which is still supported. My concerns are of a general nature. I accept that we don't want a soup which becomes a mishmash but the way the developers actively block any legitimate attempts to prolong legacy software's life seems without justification.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 16:31 | 35th Post |
| Try LibreOffice then Robert. It is free and does Microsoft Office 2011 documents.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 17:20 | 36th Post |
| Thanks Jk, will take a look I tried Open Office but the experience wasn't great. Kind of matched the price.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Jun 8th, 2013 20:07 | 37th Post |
Rant/ I agree that that can be frustrating, Robert but that is one of the characteristics of apple that I actually like. You can only support legacy apps for a certain amount of time without compromising the current OS...that's the Windows conundrum - support EVERYTHING and you have a real pot lucky soup on your hands. If you don't need updated software that's OS dependant....why update OS in first place? Does it really give THAT amount of benefit? The OS is generally something I want - extra features and security and from apple it's free or $25 so no one is sticking a gun to my head. Plus, mainly, I like more speed - no matter how fast I am already - and usually, you can't get the speed without upgrading everything. Right now I have a fairly new macbook pro (18 months old) and a 5 year old Macbook and iMac...the last two drive me crazy sometimes opening D800 files and the newish MBP is snappy fast. I've been trying to wait for the wifi and thunderbolt upgrades to come to imacs and will buy a new one then and it will seem silly fast (drool, drool, excitement). The body may be getting old but the tech center of the doddering brain is still intact and firing
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Sun Jun 9th, 2013 03:34 | 38th Post |
Robert wrote:Thanks Jk, will take a look I tried Open Office but the experience wasn't great. Kind of matched the price.Open Office v2.x was fairly slow but version 3 was much better. LibreOffice is very good. The spreadsheet macros are nearly identical. If you want something better for great page layout then you need a desktop publishing tool. QuarkExpress or iBooks or InDesign are the tools.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
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