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| Author | Post | |||||||||
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jk
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There are strong rumours that Nikon will bring out an DX/FX mirrorless camera by 2019. If the do this there is a large probability that there will be an adapter for existing lenses to work on it as well as a new range of lenses. Will you be interested/buying? |
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Robert
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Anticipating Iain's reply, if the price is at £20.50 (inc VAT) maybe. Better put £20 in a high interest account now! |
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jk
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Well I would anticipate that Iain may have the right numbers but the decimal poin is in the wrong place! £2050 maybe! |
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Robert
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I just checked my screen, perhaps it was a spec of dust on my screen? |
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Robert
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Given you have raised the mirrorless question again, what is the spec that might work, potentially 'fixing' the issues of forerunner mirrorless cameras? I have zero experience of mirrorless except for my old Nikon P3 tiny sensor camera. It seems the viewfinder and battery life has been the bugbear so far, obviously Nikon will be acutely aware of that, with people like Eric and many others who bravely went over to the Fuji system, returning to conventional DSLR's. Is it horses for courses, or will Nikon produce a viable versatile camera which will satisfy the vast majority of users needs. I have read that the Mirrorless sensor is always on, hence the short battery life, surely that's an easy fix. Just have it come on on a half press of the shutter release or some similar arrangement? A D850, which already has an electronic, silent shutter, without the pentaprism? Or just without the mirror, have a large screen lying flat, below the pentaprism? And then... What about the mount, F or ??? That is the 64 million dollar question.  |
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jk
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I would expect Nikon to reuse the battery from the V1/D800/D810/D850 to provide good power capacity for a new mirrorless. Rumours state that the new camera will come with a Z mount and also a F to Z mount adapter. https://nikonrumors.com/tag/nikon-z-mount/ This is reduce the need for Nikon to release a huge tranche of new lenses. https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/03/lets-start-talking-about-the-upcoming-nikon-mirrorless-camera.aspx/ |
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Eric
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Robert wrote:Given you have raised the mirrorless question again, what is the spec that might work, potentially 'fixing' the issues of forerunner mirrorless cameras? I have zero experience of mirrorless except for my old Nikon P3 tiny sensor camera. For me there needs to be 3 fundamental changes... 1. Batteries that last 3x as long as current cells or electronics that don't waste power as much as mirrorless currently do. I need to have at least 500 shots per battery. 2. Solving viewfinder freeze....the image taken stays in the viewfinder till the buffer? clears. So while you are admiring the shot you just took...the subject has changed or moved away. You then have to find and acquire it again for a second shot. The only part solution I found was to shoot in AFC and machine gun the subject with an old time flicker movie effect in the viewfinder....then throw away 20 duplicate shots. This inevitable added to battery drain and reduced resultant shots/ battery. 3. Make it feel like a Nikon DSLR. Surely they can adopt the ergonomic design we know and love in a lightweight body? The D500 is not that different to the Fuji XT2 wieightwise. I do not see the need to combine retro design and mirrorless? It's taken years of effort to get away from a 'brick in the hand'. I want a mirrorless to feel like a Nikon DX body. |
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jk
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I agree Eric. 1. With my XT2 I always carry two spare batteries. 2. The viewfinder freeze is not something I notice I have to say but this can be reduced by faster image reads off the sensor. 3. That is a design issue but I agree we just need to reduce the pentaprism hump. An XPro1 body without the OVF and with XT2 internals and controls would work well for me. If the AF speed was improved to D850 levels and I could use my F mount lenses then I would buy one! |
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Eric
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jk wrote:I agree Eric. I am curious why you don't see the image freeze? Let me try to understand.... I see a small bird in a bush. I lock focus and fire in AFS mode. It takes the photo but the image display is frozen in the viewfinder albeit for a fraction of a second. In that moment the bird has moved out of frame ...so I have to find it again. More annoying, if I am in AFC mode as soon as the frozen image clears, the camera refocuses on the bush potentially way behind where the bird was. So I HAVE to refocus. In situations where I take just one photo or the subject stays in shot, it doesn't matter. But specifically when the movement of the subject is erratic and unpredictable, losing line of sight, so to speak, can be a real issue. Using Ch continuous shooting it's possible to keep the bird under the focus sensor but the viewfinder flickers away like mad....and the battery power goes doooown! So what am I doing wrong? |
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novicius
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Nikon has already a mirrorless system camera of rather good quality, so will that new camera replace the Mighty Big D camera`s ? |
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Eric
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novicius wrote:Nikon has already a mirrorless system camera of rather good quality, so will that new camera replace the Mighty Big D camera`s ? Interesting thought. One of my critiques of mirrorless is the wholesale abandonment of the ergonomic camera body design, which has evolved over years and is now so familiar in the hand. Struggling with crude shaped bodies is an additional unwanted distraction ...when you are already getting to grips with mirrorless cameras other shortcomings.  I would be more interested in a Nikon mirrorless if it felt like a D750 in the hand.  |
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Eric
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jk wrote:I would expect Nikon to reuse the battery from the V1/D800/D810/D850 to provide good power capacity for a new mirrorless. Surely having to use an external lens adapter will add weight? Yet again diminishing the lightweight advantage of mirrorless to some degree. For mirrorless to work for me I need a camera body that's familiar in the hand; a viewfinder that doesn't freeze while saving the image to card; a battery that copes with sensor drain and still delivers 300+ shots. Beyond that the question I have is ...."who really gains by getting rid of the mirror?" If when using it for anything more than casual walkabout photography you have heavy lenses, there's no weight advantage. Even if you don't use them, the lenses are still in your bag...just in case. All the lenses need to be mega light too! The only real advantage I have seen using the Fuji mirrorless is the ability to see the actual exposure compensation live in the viewfinder. Take the guesswork out of adjusting for backlight. The Fuji lenses are very good quality though. |
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jk
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Eric wrote:I would be more interested in a Nikon mirrorless if it felt like a D750 in the hand. Surely a Nikon FM sized digital would be perfect. No mirror and film compartments which would be filled with battery or electronics. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric wrote: Don't see the point of making bodies so small that some users need to add grips. If it's bigger to start with there's room in there for bigger better battery. |
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Robert
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jk wrote:Surely a Nikon FM sized digital would be perfect. I thought we had moved on since the FM, ergonomics are very important. While the FM, FE etc. were very good cameras in their day, cameras such as the D750 are joy to use. I would expect the electronics could be compressed into almost no space, a couple of chips? The motor for the mirror and focal plane shutter, together with the mechanisms and associated parts must be very expensive to make and develop. Savings in these departments should give the manufacturers some leeway to encourage them to develop a really good modern camera without a mirror or pentaprism. |
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novicius
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I do not understand the point of Nikon adding a third camera system , if I need a new camera than it has to have the " F " mount , when a smaller camera is called for than I borrow the missus J1 which is an Exellent camera...or will Nikon phase out the "V" series ? I can not imagine the Big D`s getting phased out. |
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jk
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Robert wrote:jk wrote: Yes, I was talking form factor not control layout. Happy to have D750/850 layout. |
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Eric
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Robert wrote:jk wrote: Yes..if they keep the same size body, get rid of all the gubbins, compress all the chips..there would be space to store my iPhone in the back. |
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Iain
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The way the interest rate is it will take a few years to get the 50p |
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Iain
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Eric wrote:jk wrote: This was one of the things that bugged me too. |
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Iain
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I think that Nikon might have missed the boat as the people that I know up here using Nikon and wanting mirrorless have already changed to another system. |
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Eric
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Iain wrote:I think that Nikon might have missed the boat as the people that I know up here using Nikon and wanting mirrorless have already changed to another system. That may be true but all current mirrorless have the limitations we discussed. So if Nikon can solve those shortcomings they may have a way back. Personally I can't see them delivering anything different to current offerings. The industry seems to be locked into a particular direction for mirrorless which doesn't excite me. |
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jk
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Well it would seem that this rumour is coming to reality. There is meant to be an announcement in the next 2-3 weeks. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/04/nikon-mirrorless-camera-specs-recap.aspx/ Rumours say there will be an FX as well as a DX or a high (47MP) and a lower 24MP camera. Time will tell, not long to wait! |
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jk
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https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/09/additional-nikon-mirrorless-full-frame-camera-specifications-af-and-more.aspx/ Getting almost to a position where I really just want one to test against my Fujis. Hey Nikon UK what about it? NDA s not a problem! |
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jk
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It is all about your settings! Once you experiment with them so it suits what you want then everything else is past history! It is about the AF settings! |
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jk
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Eric wrote:Iain wrote: I agree and think Nikon should have embraced mirrorless earlier! What direction do you think mirrorless is going and what doesnt excite you? |
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jk
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Seems to confirm that Nikon either have another mirrorless in the pipeline or are just reducing camera lines! https://www.dpreview.com/news/3989109657/nikon-inc-confirms-the-nikon-1-is-officially-discontinued |
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novicius
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Thanks for the links J K ,.. Interesting interview with Tetsuru Goto , yet he`s Not saying if the camera`s will replace the Big D `s. I could say that I am catered for , as the D3s - D3X are Everything I want and more...and yet.. A lightweight , smaller , 20 f-stop dynamic range , affordable camera could be interesting. But why do away with the mirror ?...why not omit the mechanical shutter ? The D1 has a hybrid Mechanical/ Electronic shutter , so now twenty years later , Nikon may have Perfected that , no more " rolling " f.ex. Look, the old F is a small-ish camera , yet has a mirror Larger than it`s contemporaries, even a 500mm would fill the 100 prcent screen without mirror cut-off. So the mirror box is Not what makes a camera BIG. Video could be a factor for mirrorless , my D3S has video , with mirror-up tho`, therefore only rear monitor can be used, it`s a pain.. So for video I use my phone. But Tetsuro Goto is saying No video on that FullFrame mirrorless. So I`m guessing that the new camera is an Addition to the Big D line. What are your thoughts on this ? |
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jk
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novicius wrote:Thanks for the links J K ,..Yes my D850, D800, D600 works well for me as well. The mirror mechanism is costly, heavy and increases moving parts so going mirrorless makes for cheaper cameras with higher specification. Yes I agree but getting rid of the mirror gives the opportunity to also remove the pentaprism. This in turn lightens the camera. There is the need to add an Elctronic Viewfinder (EVF) then which needs to be high definition with fast refresh rate. Refresh rates of around 60-100cps gives you no flicker except under some artificial light conditions. Then there is the resolution which needs to be around 2.4MP (I think) to equate to a pentaprism display and to equate to human vision.
I dont do video as I dont want to edit the video. I also probably need some tuition. So the new Mirrorless Nikons will satisfy me. The big downside for me is the increased need for better or more powerful batteries. |
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Eric
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There is no doubt that mirrorless cameras are better, by that I mean better ergonomically, than DSLR bodies when it comes to video. The simple process of looking through the viewfinder instead of squinting at a rear screen at arms length in sunlight wins hands down. Apart from the benefits of lighter weight the other advantage I find is wysiwg exposure compensation. It takes all the guesswork out of awkward lighting. Of course, as I have had said ad nauseum....being lighter doesn't have to be smaller. Strangely, our hands haven't got smaller! It also seems that the designers cannot make something smaller without breaking all the time tested requirements of comfortable feel and easy controls layout. They mask this incapacity by saying it's 'retro' look. Errr...no. It's abandoning the last 50years of body evolution...don't do it! But the battery is the Achilles heal. Its workload has been added to immensly with the EVF. Using bigger or more batteries isn't the answer...that just adds back the weight, gained from removing the mirror and pentaprism. As does the need for a grip to house the extra batteries....albeit now more handleable ....like a DSLR! I also have doubts that the EVF freeze, when writing files to card, will ever be sorted unless some kind of dual parallel processor/circuitry is incorporated to separate the live sensor display from saving the last image. |
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jk
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Agree 100% with Eric. Smaller isnt necessarily required but less weight is good when a well designed ergonomic body is provided. |
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novicius
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Thank You J K and Eric ,for your insightful knowledge , it`s most appreciated. |
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Robert
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Take a look... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZldXR313k4M Last few seconds... Announcement on 25th (July)? |
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jk
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Not obvious to me what it is advertising. All these teaser videos! |
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novicius
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Saw the vid.,.. Nikon is going StarTrek ...!??...the new Lt. Uhuru looks Lovely.. |
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jk
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novicius wrote:Saw the vid.,.. |
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jk
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Looks like announcement date is 23rd August. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/23/nikon-mirrorless-camera-announcement-confirmed-for-august-23rd.aspx/ |
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novicius
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I had a look-see...I am Not sure , the talk about a new F-mount is confusing me.. I do hope these will retain the " real " F-mount.. https://nikonrumors.com/2016/09/22/nikon-registered-d6-d7-d8-and-d9-trademarks.aspx/ What is Nikon brewing...?.. |
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Robert
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The new 'F' mount will be a 'Z' mount which has a larger flange aperture diameter, which provides for ultra fast lenses - less than f/1.0, the contacts will be fewer because the lenses will have digital control rather than analogue and the contacts are being re-designed to be more reliable, with axial, rather than radial contact surfaces I think. From what I have read Nikon are committed to a high tech adaptor from Z mount to F mount to enable *some* F mount lenses to be fully compatible with mirrorless and some or all of the less compatible lenses to be used with limitations forced by the characteristics of that lens. |
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jk
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Robert wrote:The new 'F' mount will be a 'Z' mount which has a larger flange aperture diameter, which provides for ultra fast lenses - less than f/1.0, the contacts will be fewer because the lenses will have digital control rather than analogue and the contacts are being re-designed to be more reliable, with axial, rather than radial contact surfaces I think. Yes to get 'full functionality' you will need AFS lenses. The older screwdriven AF lenses and MF lens will meter with the adapter but wont AF. |
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Robert
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Edited (enhanced) 'teaser' frames... https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/24/more-on-of-the-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser.aspx/#more-123810 |
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jk
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Inch pebbles of information. Want to see results. |
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Robert
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jk wrote:Want to see results. Well you will just have to be patient then! |
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novicius
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jk wrote:Robert wrote: Was that a Subtle way of saying that I`m Screwed... |
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jk
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AF can be heavily overrated! Dont worry we will work it out. |
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Robert
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Something as bit more concrete... http://www.nikon.com.au/en_AU/about/product_news/development-of-a-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless |
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jk
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Yes that confirms what I know currently. Notice they havent released specs or dates for release to market. |
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novicius
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And so.... https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/mirrorless-is-coming.page?cid=img_en_us:EML:MKT:7262018:ML-DA:2018-27-07-CD-US:na:img:joinexcitement&ET_CID=2216249&ET_RID=335265860&SC_ID=0032400001InjVkAAJ Can we hold our breath... |
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Robert
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One of the question marks is regarding the "digital age lenses", what constitutes a digital age lens??? |
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jk
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Sorry but I think that there is a lot of hype on this subject. It is purely about two or three things. 1. Is the lens able to render fine detail? 2. Do you like its colour tendering? This is a matter of taste but can be adjusted in PP. 3. Bokeh.... Either you like it or not! So very subjective. I think the hype is around an attempt by agents and distributors and local camera companies reaching sales targets! I have a Nikon 105 f2.5 that is 40+ years old and it works well on my D850, as does my MF 105mm f1.8. I can tell which lens I have used due to colour rendering as older lenses seem to be warmer or bluer while modern Nikon lenenses are very neutral.  |
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jk
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novicius wrote:And so.... Please dont as I dont think that 26 days breath holding is good also what happens if it gets delayed! |
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Robert
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jk wrote:Sorry but I think that there is a lot of hype on this subject. Of course there is, if Nikon and all the supply chain don't make money, they go out of business. We have a stack of companies going bust because they try to sell cheap stuff cheap, or compete with impossible odds. Nikon have to make money, lot's of it. If a little hype helps, so be it. |
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Robert
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What I was actually meaning was does this mean that your (and my) 105-f/2.5 AI Nikkors will work with the new mirrorless camera if they are chipped, because the inference seems to be that they might. But if they are un-chipped, they probably won't. |
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jk
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Yes they will work as long as the adapter used corrects the two different distances between rear node to sensor, which it will if it is properly designed. If it is chipped then it will read info from the lens otherwise you will get f0, 0mm unless there is also a menu selction system like on current DSLRs with MF lenses. AF is the bug bear as screwdriver focus lenses wont work except my MF but AFS should but it might be design to work with new P lenses so then we need to know the compromise! Got my name down with Fixation to have one of the new cameras. Need to get specs confirmed. |
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Robert
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Don't think the F mount adaptors will be available from the get go. One of the big unknowns is how it will deal with the AI indexing, will there be a motor in the adaptor... The camera specific, 'Z' mount lenses will likely be magnetic diaphragm, sort of linear motor, therefor electronic. Many of the likely adopters of this new camera will have manual F mount lenses and keen to use them to their full potential on the new camera. |
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Eric
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Really doesn't matter to me what lenses are usable.... unless the Nikon mirrorless has stopped last frame viewfinder freeze, it will be of no use for action photography. |
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Robert
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I would be surprised if there is any silliness like that. Time will tell. |
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jk
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Robert wrote:Don't think the F mount adaptors will be available from the get go. With mirrorless you dont need to focus at full aperture especially when you manual focus as the EVF can light magnify to provide equivalent EVF brightness. There are many differences in mirrorless whose operation is so different to a DSLR. The physical differences are obvious but the real advantages are the ability to pre-visualise the exposure so you can under/over expose to get your desired result. The fly-by-wire aperture, focus for AF, etc, give us huge opportunities but of course some frustrations with dirty contacts and battery life. There are always advantages and disadvantages. |
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jk
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Eric wrote:Really doesn't matter to me what lenses are usable.... unless the Nikon mirrorless has stopped last frame viewfinder freeze, it will be of no use for action photography. I agree that frame-freeze or poor refresh is a real bugbear. I dont find this a problem with the XT2 but did with previous Fuji EVFs in XT1, XE2, XE1 and especially XPro1. This effect also exists in DSLRs with mirror blackout effect. I think this problem is worse with different photography types so worse in sports and wildlife photography but of no problem for landscape, astrophotography. Things like macro is also a huge differenceas you get more opportunities but there are fewer accessories so it is a real balance. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric wrote: I agree mirror blackout occurs in DSLRs, but the time out is significantly less than even the XT2. I would love to see a Nikon mirrorless that solved the key disadvantages of other mirrorless bodies and it would encourage me to buy it...because there are several great advantages, like those you mention, to mirrorless. A full frame camera with current AFS and P lens compatibility, albeit through an adapter, would be a tempting addition....leaving the DSLR bodies for wildlife. I could live with that.  |
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jk
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Technically I think this is possible but it requires continuous readout from the sensor to the EVF, even while saving the image. |
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GeoffR
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novicius wrote: I do not understand the point of Nikon adding a third camera system , if I need a new camera than it has to have the " F " mount , when a smaller camera is called for than I borrow the missus J1 which is an Excellent camera...or will Nikon phase out the "V" series ?The 1 series has been discontinued, they are very capable but, the sensor is too small, they mostly lack a viewfinder and the F mount adaptor has a poor reputation. The 1 V3 has an optional viewfinder the 1 J series don't. |
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jk
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GeoffR wrote:novicius wrote:I do not understand the point of Nikon adding a third camera system , if I need a new camera than it has to have the " F " mount , when a smaller camera is called for than I borrow the missus J1 which is an Excellent camera...or will Nikon phase out the "V" series ?The 1 series has been discontinued, they are very capable but, the sensor is too small, they mostly lack a viewfinder and the F mount adaptor has a poor reputation. The 1 V3 has an optional viewfinder the 1 J series don't. I have a V1 with 10-30 and 30-100 lens. It is great but only if the light is bright as IMHO the sensor size is too small (as GeoffR says). Above ISO it is very noisy! |
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Iain
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Looks like it's going to be announced and unveiled on the on the 23 August. |
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jk
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Yes, that is confirmed now. I have my name on the list with NPS number for getting one out the first batch at FixationUK in London. Delivery will be Sept/Oct. 3 or 4 new Z lenses, plus adapter for F flange lenses. Adapter will work with AFS lenses but not earlier AFD. . |
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Robert
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Will this be a case of the early bird getting the worm or the snags? |
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novicius
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Eagerly awaiting J K `s in-depth report |
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Robert
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And many others, including myself, although I think we should get one for Eric, I think he will be more sceptical than JK, who seems sold on the mirrorless thing already. This is Nikons second attempt at a mirrorless, I guess V1 was a dry run. There is no doubt Nikon are throwing huge R&D resources into their latest offerings, rather than just developing and improving what went before. The huge leap in quality and performance of the D850 bears that out. If they can get the other stuff right it will be a game changer. I do hope so. |
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GeoffR
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Robert, the Nikon mirrorless was the Nikon 1 system. The V1, V2 and V3 were just different flavours of Nikon 1. There were also Nikon 1 J1, J2, J3, J4 and J5 cameras plus a number of Nikon 1 AW bodies all with the 1 Mount. On the box for my 30 to 110 lens it says 1 Nikkor, on the camera body it says Nikon 1 J5. I know this sounds pedantic but if Nikon call it the 1 system, who are we to argue. |
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GeoffR
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Robert, Nikon call their recently discontinued mirrorless camera system the Nikon 1. The V1, together with the V2 and V3 are merely flavours of Nikon 1 as are the J1, J2, J3, J4 and J5. The box for my 10-110 lens has the designation 1 Nikkor emblazoned upon it. I know this seems pedantic but if Nikon call it the 1 system who are we to argue Nikon 1 |
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Eric
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Robert wrote:And many others, including myself, although I think we should get one for Eric, I think he will be more sceptical than JK, who seems sold on the mirrorless thing already. I don't think I am anymore REALISTIC about mirrorless issues than Jonathan. I would happily buy one if it improved on the performance and feel of the Fuji....for no other reason that it would be capable of using my other Nikon lenses. Some of my negatives on the Fuji were really down to using it for the wrong situations....I know that now.I would happily dedicate the D500 and long lenses to birding ....and use a mirrorless Nikon for walk around. BUT....... It would have to be as good if not better than the wife's LUMIX FZ2000. I am almost thinking I could carry her camera for her...and let her use it periodically. |
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Robert
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That's my point, that WAS the first (meaningful I have a P3 which was OK but... tiny sensor etc.) version of mirrorless, will the new one become VX2, I doubt it... |
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jk
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I have one huge gripe with my Fuji mirrorless camera..... batteries. Eric's issues with blackout are valid but its importance varies with use. I dont have an issue with this. Until I get hands on the new Nikon mirrorless then we/I all hold judgment on the product. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:I have one huge gripe with my Fuji mirrorless camera..... batteries. Back in the day, I had a 12v shoulder power pack to power a portable light for location movie work. Not wishing to add to the accutrimentia we tote but with all these power packs for recharging phones and iPads, why can't we have a power pack hotwired to the camera for extended power supply? |
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jk
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Eric wrote:jk wrote: You can. I have one for my Fujis..... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ex-Pro®-CP-W126-NP-W126-Ex-Pro-Rechargeable/dp/B01N3SHKE5/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1533058023&sr=8-3&keywords=fuji+external+battery+pack https://www.amazon.co.uk/16000mAh-Rechargeable-replacing-description-Compatibility/dp/B01N3OZRNK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1533058094&sr=8-7&keywords=fuji+external+battery+pack Works a treat. You can also use the USB socket to top up your phone or iPad! |
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jk
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BTW. I am hoping that the new Nikon Mirrorless uses the same battery (EN-EL15) as my D850, D800, D600, V1 camera. We can but hope. |
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Eric
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jk wrote:Eric wrote: NOW you tell me!  |
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jk
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Sorry Eric.  |
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jk
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Latest teaser. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax3ZpDs4EgI |
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jk
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Another independent video which shows some additional information. https://youtu.be/Z9D_NhXAs00 And a shouty guy who brings some other info. https://youtu.be/SRcO74ituZ4 |
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Eric
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I don't know whether it's the fact I left a whacking great credit kicking it's heels at WEX when I bought the 80-400 half price, or whether it's the apparent better shape of the new Nikon mirrorless, but I am starting to get excited about the forthcoming launch. Having a mirrorless from the same stable as my DSLR feels better. I always found a mismatch between Fuji and Nikon's way of doing things. Whilst not the end of the world, little things can irriate. So I await with interest the verdict on the Nikon's battery usage rate and of course the viewfinder freeze.....although this becomes less of an issue if I dedicate the DSLR to wildlife and action photography. |
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jk
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Well if the new Nikon mirrorless out performs the Fuji XT2 then I will have some serious review of kit going on. If the FF is successful then it will be easy for Nikon to make a DX version. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Well if the new Nikon mirrorless out performs the Fuji XT2 then I will have some serious review of kit going on. I don't see a DX sensor relevant for anything other than long reach photography...like wildlife. A DX mirrorless would only be of use if Nikon overcame all the previously mentioned impediments. I could happily settle with the D500 and long lenses for bird photography and a mirrorless FF for everything else. |
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jk
|
Eric wrote:jk wrote: But would you want FF or DX and then how many MP? |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Eric wrote:Definitely full frame for mirrorless walkaround and 25mp would be enough. The dilemma I have with bird photography persists..... is the D500 with its 1.5x multiplication factor, but inferior noise at high iso, the best choice? Or would a D850 with its superior noise handling and crop ability be better? I am in no rush to change the D500 for a D850, in the absence of any clear winner on this count. But I would like a FF camera again. IF the FF mirrorless Nikon impresses, I may add it as the FF option. But if the Nikon falls short, then I may swop the D500 for a D850. I could always use the wife's FZ2000 as a walk around camera for both of us...I invariably end up carrying it anyway!! My concern, as always, with large MP sensors, is the inevitble need for improved technique to maximise the quality. Not sure I would capitalise on it's potential us8ng it as a walkaround. It would need to be my more static use body. I genuinely hope Nikon have raised the bar in the right directions, on the new mirrorless. |
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jk
|
Eric, what ISO are you using on the D500 when you get noise? I dont see this with my D500 but I dont have to boost ISO. My D500 is in UK so I cant test easily but I can look through images. |
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jk
|
Latest stuff from Nikon Rumours. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/05/another-nikon-mirrorless-camera-picture-leaked.aspx/ |
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Robert
|
Is that the film speed dial image #4 top left... The lens looks like a (wobbly) consumer lens... |
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jk
|
Yes the lens looks like the zoom 24-70. I guess all dials will have multi features. I expect the layout to be very conventional. So left side of photo (shutter release side of camera) the dial will give EV compensation and maybe MASP selection. The dial at other end of camera will give bracketing, shutter rate (HI, Cont, Single up to 8? fps), possibly in camera Panorama, etc. |
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novicius
|
Looks a Serious piece of work !! |
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novicius
|
Having a closer look makes me wonder,..is this the beginning of the End of the Big D era ?? The last of the "F" series is the F6... and now there`s the D5 , if history repeats itself..then is the D6 going to be the last , before being replaced by something entirely Different... Hoping that I can still use my Cherished Nikkors , the very reason I stayed True to Nikon. |
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Robert
|
Well, I understand Nikon said they would continue to develop the 'F' line but didn't. I somehow think this is different. The larger lens mount might allow for a rectangular, larger format sensor, I think the very short sensor to Flange distance is to reverse the trend of some users who use Nikkor lenses on 'other makes' such as the FF Sony. With DX, FX and MF sensors as options in the same style body, which can also use the F Mount would be a clever move on Nikons part given they don't have an MF body as such. It could open up a big opportunity, given the prices of MF bodies. I see both types of camera co-existing They both have strengths and weaknesses. If this lives up to the hype it's going to be something special. |
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GeoffR
|
Robert wrote: Well, I understand Nikon said they would continue to develop the 'F' line but didn't.Nikon may have intended to continue development of film bodies but I suspect the rate at which the market changed precluded their doing so. However, the F6 has not been discontinued. An updated body with the D5's AF and metering systems would seem entirely possible should there be a demand. Contrary to popular mythology there are serious down sides to EVFs; some eye conditions make using them unpleasant for instance. Other users with inner ear conditions have reported problems too. They aren't universally acceptable and may never reach that position. I used an Olympus mirrorless for a few weeks and couldn't get on with it because the EVF wasn't able to resolve detail to a sufficient extent to confirm focus, it was also too small. Despite comments from various Nikon users, the Nikon 1 series cameras are actually very capable but lack some of the features of an SLR, shutter operation sometimes isn't what one expects. The 1 J5 is apparently the best of the bunch and, with a viewfinder, would be very versatile. Nikon's new mirrorless camera should easily out perform the 1 series and incorporate all the best attributes of the D5. Much has been said about the new lens mount, there appears to be no reason why current Nikkor lenses shouldn't work via an adaptor but older, mechanically coupled, lenses may be either unusable or very restricted in operation, we shall have to wait and see. On the subject of lenses, I would not be surprised to see the F mount replaced on SLRs as its limitations are becoming obvious. Look at a recent DSLR and you will see that the lens mount sits in the middle of a circular pad about the same size as the Z mount for the mirrorless body. This has been the case since the D2. Why would a designer have such a flat area on the front of a camera body if there wasn't some prospect of needing the space later? Current lenses are moving away from any mechanical linkages; once that is complete there is nothing to stop Nikon from moving to a larger diameter lens mount. Thoughts? |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Eric, what ISO are you using on the D500 when you get noise? I dont see this with my D500 but I dont have to boost ISO. My D500 is in UK so I cant test easily but I can look through images. The visible noise of which I speak is a function of how much cropping I have to do when photographing distant birds. The full picture may be perfectly 'noise free' to the eye at 2000+ ISO ...but crop in to (say) quarter frame and artefacts cane be seen. I believe Graham has noted that his D850 ( being a FF sensor) has on balance less noise at high ISO than his D500. I have no experience of the D850 but I sometimes feel the heavy cropping combined with the higher ISO needed to use fast shutter speeds with birds in U.K. would benefit from anything that's on offer. Of course a longer lens would be another answer...so roll on the 500P |
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jk
|
I agree that current EVFs are not the equivalent of a OVF but there are advantages (light amplification in EVF really helps in macro) but action smearing and pixel effects are serious downsides. In flamenco photography the Fuji XT1 is neigh on useless but the XT2 is much better but not as good as an OVF. Horses for courses! Like everything in life we need to consider the advantages/disadvantages before committing to changes. For me this is the reason I have nvested in multiple cameras. I am fortunate being able to do this. |
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jk
|
Eric wrote:jk wrote: Definitely agree with your comments wrt to enlarged hi ISO images that are cropped. It is the reason I got the Nikon 200-500, cropping is still required for some BIF images which really shows what you describe, D500 is only 20MP! |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Eric wrote: Do you know...I had forgotten it was only 20mp. Got it in my head it was 24mp.  Am afraid I haven't mastered BIF yet. |
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jk
|
Eric wrote:
BIF are easy with the D500 and right AF settings, as once it locks on and you keep the birds more or less in frame it seems to keep focus. It was BeeEaters I was photographing last year. Only see them for two weeks maximum as they fly back to Africa. |
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GeoffR
|
jk wrote: Eric wrote:As with many things Nikon, mastering the AF system is harder than mastering panning but once done it does indeed make capturing birds relatively easy. |
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jk
|
GeoffR wrote:jk wrote:Eric wrote:As with many things Nikon, mastering the AF system is harder than mastering panning but once done it does indeed make capturing birds relatively easy. Like the flash system as well. I prefer to use PocketWizard system and manually control via the TT5 and AC3 controller. |
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GeoffR
|
jk wrote: GeoffR wrote:I try not to use flash, I can push either D3 to 3200 and the D4 to 6400 without unacceptable noise. If forced to use flash I have a set of controllers that allow the use of most flashguns. It wouldn't be worth getting more SB900/910s. |
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jk
|
Latest rumours. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/08/new-nikon-mirrorless-camera-leak-from-china-is-it-a-mockup-or-a-real-picture.aspx/ |
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jk
|
The latest (3rd) teaser. https://www.dpreview.com/news/2044949181/nikon-teaser-full-frame-mirrorless-body In two weeks all will be revealed. |
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novicius
|
Getting Tired of them teasers...come out with the thing and have J K Test the Pixel out of it !! |
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jk
|
novicius wrote:Getting Tired of them teasers...come out with the thing and have J K Test the Pixel out of it !!I agree with you the teasers are a little tortuous. Too kind of you to arrange for me to test. I was looking at the European Championships in Berlin and I think I saw one being used by a photographer. I will see what the exact specifications are before I part with my cash but I would prefer to have a totally Nikon system even though I have a somewhat large investment in the Fuji system. If I decide against the Nikon mirrorless then I will get another Fuji XT2 and possibly an XH1 for the IBIS but we shall see. I tend to think that will be an unlikely scenario as the Nikon will be very good I am sure. Nikon is very conservative but also very concerned with getting it right. This will be a Nikon F for mirrorless in Nikon system. |
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Robert
|
While I am sure Nikon will craft an outstanding product, especially after the insights from the Article I posted on their sensor labs. This will be the first iteration of a completely new product. Hopefully it won't be a one off like the DF and other dead end products which were promising but didn't progress, UW? I dont think that will happen here, so I feel we may have the beginning of a line of wonderful cameras, inferring that there will be room for improvement as the product matures. Little used features perhaps dropped and shortcomings improved upon. I just wonder if this may be a case for wait and see, maybe hire one before leaping in with a lot of cash for a totally new product. Although if unsuitable I guess there will be many out there waiting to snap up a bargain little used example... No matter any foibles. |
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Eric
|
Robert wrote:While I am sure Nikon will craft an outstanding product, especially after the insights from the Article I posted on their sensor labs. This will be the first iteration of a completely new product. Hopefully it won't be a one off like the DF and other dead end products which were promising but didn't progress, UW? WEX give 30day no quibble returns. Should be able to evaluate it in that time. |
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GeoffR
|
Eric wrote: Robert wrote:It's an idea but I think it unfair to do that unless one can afford the product and is reasonably certain of keeping it. I could probably afford it but I think it very unlikely that I would want to keep it so I won't be taking that route. |
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novicius
|
Eric did say with a wink... |
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Eric
|
novicius wrote:Eric did say with a wink... Perhaps I should have used more than one? One day I will stop sending things back and keep something. WEX have got 3 grand of my money on account that they won't return, so I will have to buy something to get it. |
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jk
|
Eric wrote: novicius wrote: Just about the right amount of money for one of the new Nikon mirrorless (24MP rather than 45MP) and the 24-70 zoom. |
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jk
|
Closest thing I have seen to the likely reality! https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/13/breaking-nikon-z6-and-z7-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-and-three-lenses-coming-on-august-23rd-z-noct-nikkor-58mm-f-0-95-lens-to-be-announced-later.aspx/ |
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jk
|
Notice these words...... August 23rd we will get both the Nikon Z6 and Nikon Z7 mirrorless cameras together with the 24-70mm f/4, 50mm f/1.8 and one more wide angle lens (24mm f/1.8 or 28mm f/1.8 or 35mm f/1.8). |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Eric wrote:novicius wrote: I am busily selling more gear on eBay in anticipation of the 45mp price.....but maybe 25 will be enough? Getting exciting isn't it? |
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jk
|
I am struggling with that decision as well but since I have the D850 I am thinking I want the Z7 (45MP) rather than the Z6 (24MP) but 24MP is good unless you want to crop extensively! No telephotos as yet in Z series so will have to use my F series AFS lenses with adapter. |
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Robert
|
Well, my logic, for what it's worth. If you are going to do something, better to do it properly. Since I went digital with the D1 in 2006, I was biding my time for a full frame 35mm sensor. Now I have it in the form of the D3, I wouldn't go back to DX for my main camera for all the tea in China. I hated trying to make photographs through a keyhole with DX. More like aiming a rifle than composing a picture. A waist level finder with loupe would make my day! |
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GeoffR
|
I am at a loss as to why Nikon would start a new range with a model number anything other than 1 so why not Z1 for the 24MP version and Z100 for the 40+MP version? Nikon have a habit of starting ranges at 1 why would they call their first FF mirrorless the Z6? |
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novicius
|
Robert wrote:Well, my logic, for what it's worth. YES !! That is exactly what I want...Interchangeable viewfinders and a Grid screen on demand,just like my SlrN ( the grid Screen that is ) Still use my D1 with a skimpy Nikkor 35 f2.8 , yes ,the one with the small front lens.  |
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jk
|
GeoffR wrote:I am at a loss as to why Nikon would start a new range with a model number anything other than 1 so why not Z1 for the 24MP version and Z100 for the 40+MP version? Nikon have a habit of starting ranges at 1 why would they call their first FF mirrorless the Z6? I agree but the rumour mill insists on 6 & 7. I guess they want to align with D6 due soon?! |
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GeoffR
|
jk wrote: GeoffR wrote:Given the choice I would take a 24MP D6 over a mirrorless any day. Unfortunately I expect the D6 to be around £6,500. |
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Robert
|
The model numbering is still rumour... So not a lot of point in getting excited about it. The consensus is that it leave room for 'lesser' consumer models like the D40, D60, D70, etc... using the same lens mount but simpler specification. Also it gets away from the Nikon 1, which may have it's uses but I think this product will be in a totally different league. |
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jk
|
Nikon1 range now discontinued. This was the V/J series of cameras. We shall see what comes on August 23rd!  |
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Eric
|
Really don't care what they call it....if it hasn't significantly improved the EVF response, retained ergonomic feel and extended battery life, it's full frame sensor (24 or 45mp) won't be enough to woo me. But lightweight and wysiwyg exp compensation are very tempting. I too prefer FX. But I wouldn't go back to a D5. I much prefer the feel in the hand of the D750 and now D850. Of course I also like bird photography ...hence the D500. So it's going to be an interesting 2 way choice for me. 1) Mirrorless for general photography and the D500 dedicated to bird/tele work? 2) D850 for everything....and hope cropping achieves same as a D500? I am not put off by my excursion into Fuji mirrorless land...in fact I now know more clearly the strengths and weaknesses of the system. I really do hope Nikon have tackled the 3 inherent problems of mirrorless cameras. And if they have I would dip my toe in the mirrorless water again....but this time with more restraint on lens acquisition. |
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GeoffR
|
Eric wrote: What puts you off the D5 Eric? |
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Eric
|
GeoffR wrote:Eric wrote:What puts you off the D5 Eric? Too heavy and bulky for carting around on holiday. It's also unnecessarily expensive for my needs. The grips on the D750 and D850 are deeper and better suit my fingers. I used a D750 for a while and whilst the camera produced good images, it seemed to struggle when pushed in a commercial environment. I loved my D3 when I was working, but don't have the need for something that bombproof anymore An FX mirrorless might? satisfy my FX needs. We shall see. |
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GeoffR
|
Eric wrote: GeoffR wrote:That makes sense. I buy my cameras used and well after the flaws have been corrected so I only buy when the price comes down far enough. I don't actually mind the bulk of the D3 and D4 and they fit my hands very well. I just wish Nikon hadn't made such a mess of the batteries, there is absolutely no reason why the D4 couldn't have been made to accept the EN-EL4, all Nikon needed to do was to ship it with a lower capacity battery. (Assuming the story as to why a new battery was required is true) |
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Eric
|
GeoffR wrote:Eric wrote:.GeoffR wrote:That makes sense. I buy my cameras used and well after the flaws have been corrected so I only buy when the price comes down far enough. I don't actually mind the bulk of the D3 and D4 and they fit my hands very well. I just wish Nikon hadn't made such a mess of the batteries, there is absolutely no reason why the D4 couldn't have been made to accept the EN-EL4, all Nikon needed to do was to ship it with a lower capacity battery. (Assuming the story as to why a new battery was required is true) Don't get me wrong, I love the feel of the D3/4/5. They fit my hand well too and better than the bare bottomed Dxxx models....which need the bottom grip to extend support for the little finger and give more balance with pro lenses. It's just that if the weight isn't necessary...it's a lot nicer! The interesting difference with the D750 and D850 is they have the deeper grip which makes them much easier to hold without the bottom extra power grip. I bought my D750 from WEX the day it went on sale....without switching it on. Just held it in my hand for about 5mins and bought it, to the disbelief of the sales staff who wanted to tell me all about its features. I suppose I have always put comfort high on my priority list. Back in the 70/80s when I was making wildlife films, the old fashioned way, I was on an Anglia TV programme about wildlife filmmaking, with an audience asking questions. ( boring as hell!) But a lady asked me what was the most important piece of equipment in a wildlife photographers kit? I replied...a cushion. ( much laughter) But all joking apart, Ive always believed you never take the best images if you are uncomfortable...the older I've got the more that's rung true. So minimising the weight I carry about is key for me these days. Incidentally Geoff....I used to live in Denham Close back in the 60s. |
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jk
|
More from the rumour mill.................... "Here is an actual hands-on report from somebody who actually handled the Nikon Z mirrorless cameras last week in a closed-door event in Asia: The Nikon Z6/Z7 have many similarities to the Sony's 7 series The new Z-mount is almost as large as medium format mount for some 6x6 SLR cameras Handling and ergonomics are perfect The Nikon Z6 and Nikon Z7 have exactly the same body and use the same battery The EVF is fixed There are no scene modes There is a green AUTO mode as well as PSAM and 3 user settings Both 24-70 f/4 and 50 f/1.8 lenses have a very fast AF, on the test images there were some signs of vignetting when shooting wide open." Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/#ixzz5OQROAUwE |
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Robert
|
jk wrote:The new Z-mount is almost as large as medium format mount for some 6x6 SLR cameras But the lens mount is much closer to the film (sensor) plane. So the light cone would loose it's corners on a 6x6 frame. My understanding is that at the mount dimensions it can't contain a 36mm square. The light cone would allow a larger sensor but a 6x6 sensor would cost as much as a house, or more? |
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jk
|
I would love a Hasselblad 500 or 2000FCW like I had with a 6x6 sensor, probably 100MP. But it would cost around £15K or more! Makes film seem like a viable option! |
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jk
|
This bit excites me more. "Nikon Z6 and Nikon Z7 have exactly the same body and use the same battery." I hope the battery is the EN-EL15. If it is then I am very happy to have a Z6 and Z7 and get rid of all my older non IR cameras e.g. D3S, D90, D700. |
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Robert
|
I can't see Nikon missing the opportunity to make a completely new battery, maybe advanced. Rectangular cells? Cylindrical cells waste a lot of space in an rectangular housing. Having broken the lens mount continuity why worry about breaking the battery continuity? |
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Eric
|
Robert wrote:I can't see Nikon missing the opportunity to make a completely new battery, maybe advanced. Rectangular cells? Cylindrical cells waste a lot of space in an rectangular housing. Indeed.....they may even make one that lasts more than 100 shots! |
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jk
|
Single component sourcing is important in manufacturing cost management. Using the same battery and charger would mean two less sets of tests and compliance ratings. Also looking at the teasers and extracted photos. The camera body is too slim for the battery to fit anywhere other than in the handgrip so this allows a curved shape for the battery to have cylindrical cells more easily but there is no reason why not a squared edged battery. Battery size is limited so it is not possible to fit an EN-EH18. I take your point though. |
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jk
|
All the answers arrive on 23rd August. I hope! |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:All the answers arrive on 23rd August. I hope! You can tell me all about it when I return on the 23rd Sept. |
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jk
|
Apparently this is the back of the camera - according to NikonRumurs. Attachment: C333EFD5-CF1D-440A-9AB7-4851274EB185.jpeg (Downloaded 14 times) |
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jk
|
I would really like to see the baseplate and top plate. |
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novicius
|
Looks a Big monitor,and All controls on Righthand side..makes for quick working, Nice !! |
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GeoffR
|
novicius wrote: Looks a Big monitor,and All controls on Righthand side..makes for quick working, Nice !!Actually it makes for a significant difference in handling between the Z series and the D4, D5 meaning that a professional using both is going to have a steeper learning curve. If the display buttons were on the left this wouldn't be the case. Additionally, as shown in the image, the screen being close to the left edge of the body is vulnerable to impacts that wouldn't be any risk on a DSLR. |
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jk
|
Latest teaser. I suggest that you take a look even if you are only partially interested. https://youtu.be/nIi_p0wLHkM Of course they are enthuastic as they are beta testers! |
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GeoffR
|
jk wrote: Latest teaser.We'll find out all about it on Thursday. |
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Robert
|
With a 100mm screen there ain't a lot of real estate left! The joystick control looks well placed. Isn't this supposed to be a touchscreen control? Posted from Glen Shield, the wilds of Scotland on my iPad. |
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jk
|
The joystick is a great addition it is so much better and easier to use than the stupid control pad which provides poor controls. Touch screen is a +/- thing depending on what you like. On my D850/D500 I find it is useful for review but more of a gimmick! |
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novicius
|
GeoffR wrote:novicius wrote:Looks a Big monitor,and All controls on Righthand side..makes for quick working, Nice !!Actually it makes for a significant difference in handling between the Z series and the D4, D5 meaning that a professional using both is going to have a steeper learning curve. If the display buttons were on the left this wouldn't be the case. Additionally, as shown in the image, the screen being close to the left edge of the body is vulnerable to impacts that wouldn't be any risk on a DSLR. I Disagree... Everything , exept for the Two buttons on top-left ( not so much used during a shoot ), can be reached by thumb, something I could get used too Very Quickly, Not much of a steep learning curve. Learning to work with an EVF would cause more of a learning curve than working those buttons on the Righthand side. The Screen being closer to the Left Rim being more susceptible to damage ???...How is that one inch difference going to be Detrimental ?.. There are Many digital camera`s with the monitor close to the rim without causing damage. Careful handling would Avoid damage...and it`s a Nikon, they`re Not made of sugar !! |
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jk
|
IMHO everything on the controls front is very much similar. The movement of the controls from the left side of the back TFT screen to the right side of the camera is a positive move (I think). I cant see me having a problem using the Z cameras. Most professionals work with either only one camera or with multiple cameras that are the same. A camera body is almost a consumer item that is used to capture the image. Mirrorless camera bodies should be more durable as there are less moving parts. When we finally get direct readout sensors then the last major mechanical piece (the shutter) will be redundant. This will be great news. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:The joystick is a great addition it is so much better and easier to use than the stupid control pad which provides poor controls. I still can't get used to the joystick. I either accidentally move the focus point with my thumb or forget I moved it deliberately when I come to take the next shot. I must be using it wrong because I have always found it takes much longer to move the focus spot to the subject and then back for the next shot( which may be on the other extreme side of the viewfinder) than centre focus locking the subject and reframing each time. That's especially true photographing moving subjects where you need to keep space around the subject to keep them in frame. |
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jk
|
With mirrorless it is more critical (depending on the AF method in the camera) to have the AF spot over the point of interest for sharpest focus. That is a mirrorless learning. DSLRs potentially are the same but it 'seems' less critical. In my testing if you use AF-S and single central point on a mirrorless and DSLR then the Mirrorless with AF point centred on point of interest yields a sharp picture 'every' time. If you do central AF point and focus and recompose then your critical sharp images drops to 50-80%. Big difference! DSLRs are different autofocus mechanism to mirrprless but even they are improved by this method of focusing from mirrorless. Obviously it slows down your rate of working. Also it works best with static subjects. But that is why there are AF-C and AF-S modes and autofocus settings! |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:With mirrorless it is more critical (depending on the AF method in the camera) to have the AF spot over the point of interest for sharpest focus. I don't understand that Jonathan. In AF-S mode with the focus spot centre screen..... turning to position the subject under that spot centre screen, hitting the AF lock button at the back....fixes the focus point on that subject distance. Reframing without touching anything or moving, surely keeps the focus where you left it? Don't see why a mirrorless is any different to a DSLR in registering the correct focus point by this method? I can understand it causing an issue if you use the shutter button to focus and do exposure AND if you remove your finger so it refocuses. I can also accept that if the subject requires AFC AND is off centre in the required framing, moving the sensor point could be beneficial. But I don't understand how the camera having been focused using the focus and reframe method when locked can give differing results by moving the focus spot around the screen? |
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novicius
|
jk wrote:IMHO everything on the controls front is very much similar. Exactly my sentiments , plus Eric`s concerns about batt.drain/ freezing of the EVF is making me curious about Nikon`s new offering.....this wait is torturous..  |
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jk
|
Eric wrote:jk wrote: It is not intuitive but it is about lens physics. The distance between the node point in the lens and subject and projected object (image plane) varies when you change the AF location point. Locking focus makes no difference. The effect is magnified in mirrorless as distance between lens node and image plane is less than DSLR, another effect is node to subject distance so any focus error is magnified whn taking portrais compared to lanscapes with subject close to infinity. I feel the need for a drawing. |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Eric wrote:  |
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Eric
|
jk wrote:Eric wrote:  |
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