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Vivitar 285 voltage - is it safe

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Posted by PRSS: Wed Jun 27th, 2012 12:23

1^st Post

Hello everybody

I have an old Vivitar 285 Flash which is still working fine. Can I use this on my Nikon D5100 SLR? I checked the voltage as described in a link given by one of the forum members and found out that it is 9 Volts.

Is this safe for a digital SLR? Can I use this on my Nikon D5100?

Thanks in advance
PRSS

Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Wed Jun 27th, 2012 14:29

2^nd Post

PRSS,

If you are confident (or measured it yourself) 9 volts should be OK.
The main scare is for units that have over 200 Volts on the Sync cable.

Regards, Gilbert

Posted by Robert: Wed Jun 27th, 2012 15:18

3^rd Post

If it IS 9 volts then it should be OK, Measuring the voltage isn't completely straightforward, but if you are using a good digital meter then that may be OK.

Perhaps a secondary question, If you note the comments on the website I gave you, Vivitar say the *earlier* version of the gun can output much higher and damaging voltages. Can you see on the flashgun any markings which suggest it is the early version? If it is marked HV that seems to suggest it's the later version with the lower voltage.

The fact that no problems have arisen with the camera so far is not a guarantee that all is well.

I don't wish to seem to be a prophet of doom but this is a grey area and I would take the cautious route. Putting it in blunt terms, which is cheaper, a camera body or a flashgun?

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Posted by PRSS: Wed Jun 27th, 2012 19:11

4^th Post

Hello Robert

Thanks for the reply. My Vivitar 285 does not have any markings like HV. I had a very senior photographer measure the voltage. It was 9 on his digital meter.

I also had my electrician measure the voltage on his digital meter and it read 10.5

Please let me know ehat is the maximum voltage that the D5100 can withstand? or any digital camera.

If there are any secon doubts on it I shall be better off using a slave unit.

Waiting for reply
PRSS

Posted by jk: Thu Jun 28th, 2012 08:29

5^th Post

Yes I'd say that 9v is good.

I discussed this with Nikon UK Tech Supports as my Bowens Quad 4000 units are said to have sync voltages up to 250v DC. Nikon said that they had tested to 50v but did not recommend using with my Bowens units without some sort of protection circuit for the camera. I have a Wein Flash Surge protector installed if I use a direct connection but normally I use a IR or wireless sync.

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Posted by Doug: Thu Jun 28th, 2012 09:13

6^th Post

jk wrote:
Yes I'd say that 9v is good.

I discussed this with Nikon UK Tech Supports as my Bowens Quad 4000 units are said to have sync voltages up to 250v DC. Nikon said that they had tested to 50v but did not recommend using with my Bowens units without some sort of protection circuit for the camera. I have a Wein Flash Surge protector installed if I use a direct connection but normally I use a IR or wireless sync.
Nikon are stupid. Imagine only testing to 50v yet printing the following sentence in the instruction book of every DSLR they have ever made

"Use only Nikon flash units. Negative voltages or voltages over 250 V applied to the accessory shoe could not only prevent normal operation, but damage the sync circuitry of the camera or flash. Before using a Nikon flash unit not listed in this section, contact a Nikon-authorized service representative for more information." :rofl:

BTW the chart linked to by Robert is very generic in it's recommendations and states 'your call' on some fairly low voltages

This is due to some cameras having a rumoured capability of only 6v (Canon)
I actually expect that Canon are just as robust as Nikon, but since the myth exists, is perpetuated at every opportunity by Canon's representatives and users and since Canon, to my knowledge, have never made public an actual rating then the phrase 'Your Call' is justified (I imagine it's more a case of people who should know making stuff up because they don't)

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Posted by PRSS: Fri Jun 29th, 2012 01:40

7^th Post

Thanks to every body,

I have one last question.

Nikon says " Negative voltages or voltages over 250 V applied to the accessory shoe could not only prevent normal operation, but damage the sync circuitry of the camera or flash."

As per Nikon's statement are the Nikon DSLRs withstand upto 250V from flash units?

I have another National compact old flash which shows 200V. From what Nikon says I could use this also?

Dear everybody, I really want to be safe on this as I don't want to spoil my new DSLR.

Waiting for reply
PRSS

Posted by Robert: Fri Jun 29th, 2012 02:42

8^th Post

PRSS, I wouldn't use either flashgun, despite Doug's assertion that the Nikon spec's say 250 Volts and your measurements giving 9 and 200 Volts respectively. Why?

1, The circuitry is old, and may be 'leaky', I will explain in 2.

2, In order for a flash to fire, a high voltage (between 1,000 and 4,000 Volts) is 'flashed' across the tube exciting the xenon gas inside which is then energised for as long as the flash gun settings allow it to create an intense light. You can liken this high voltage energiser to a spark in a cars engine.

If you look at the flash tube you will see it is slightly yellow, that is a gold coating which conducts the high energy charge over the tube to initiate the flash.

What you are measuring with your test probes is the battery charge level, like perhaps the cars battery which would be 12 Volts on most cars.

IF the flash guns's circuitry is 'leaky' then some of that high energy flash power which may be anything from 1,000 volts to 4,000 Volts, MAY find it's way to the camera.

Leaks can come from old diodes which can leak back some of the current they are switching, from bridging of tracks on the circuit board or resistors gone bad, any number of causes.

As I have said already, to me it isn't worth the risk. The only way you can measure it properly is with an oscilloscope by an experienced electronics engineer, which isn't worth the trouble.

A couple of links to explanations.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/camera-flash3.htm

http://caves.org.uk/flash/isolator/60_21.isolator.pdf

There are many others; Google.

I would have replied properly yesterday but when I tried to research my reply I had great difficulty remaining online because my new router appears faulty. Now using backup.

I don't wish to appear a killjoy, simply don't wish you to kill your camera by using these vintage flashguns connected directly to the camera. I am all for using vintage equipment, lenses, cameras, bellows I use a lot of old gear but not vintage flash connected directly to the camera. Especially when there is a workaround.

As it says on the website... Your call.

____________________
Robert.

Posted by richw: Fri Jun 29th, 2012 05:17

9^th Post

Fire it off camera using the built in flash as a trigger. The light is more flattering for portraits this way, the Vivitar can do all the heavy lifting with maybe jut a little catchlight from the on camera flash turned down low.

Or by a pocket wizard set as a trigger: http://www.pocketwizard.com/

You can pick older models up on e-bay now and there are budget versions.

Posted by Doug: Fri Jun 29th, 2012 12:55

10^th Post

I agree with Robert.

Radio triggers are versatile and can be purchased for under $100, so why wouldn't you use one of these rather than risk damage to your DSLR

Having said that, this slightly more expensive model is a good choice.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/685034-REG/Impact_POWERSYNC16D_PowerSync16_DC_Radio_Slave.html

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Posted by jk: Fri Jun 29th, 2012 18:02

11^th Post

I would agree which is why I bought the Wein protector which only cost me £12.
http://www.weinproducts.com/safesyncs.htm

I prefer to use my camera unattached by wires but to use my Bowens IR sync unit or wireless slaves made by Pocket Wizard or Yongnuo.

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Posted by PRSS: Fri Jun 29th, 2012 21:22

12^th Post

Thank you everybody.

As Robert said, I shall not risk my camera just for the flash. I already have tow old slave units which still work perfectly well. As richw said, te on camera flash could act like a fill light.

I did try this out and it works fine for the photography, so I shall go by this way. This forum is teaching me a lot of useful stuff. Glad that I joined this.

With best regards
PRSS

Posted by Doug: Sat Jun 30th, 2012 13:05

13^th Post

I think I speak for all when I say we're glad to have members asking good questions which generate relevant and useful responses (not to mention the fact that we seem to have stayed on topic for once ;-)

)

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Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Nov 11th, 2012 12:37

14^th Post

I can comment on this, having once blown a TTL (transistor-transistor logic) trigger circuit on a digital camera, fortunately a cheap one.

My advise is follow the general consensus here: either DC isolate the flash and camera, via slave trigger etc, or just don't risk it at all.

i wouldn't go by specs, even if they appear safe. Camera manufacturers 'could' make trigger circuits compatible with older blitz weapons, but they go for low level TTL/cmos, and often opposite polarity for no reason other than deliberate obsolescence, i.e. forcing you to buy a new flash gun.

Dislike the manufacturer's strategy as much as you want, but personally I think the risk is too great to start experimenting.......you 'may' have a 9v trigger on your old flash, but those old guns were capacitive energy store devices rather than direct inverters, so you can never be absolutely sure there isn't a bit of back-EMF spiking.... potentially enough to zap things. Only takes an old and weak decoupling capacitor somewhere and you've got a spike risk.

Posted by Robert: Sun Nov 11th, 2012 13:43

15^th Post

Thanks Steve, we are of like minds on this one. ;-)

____________________
Robert.

Posted by steve of oxford: Sun Nov 11th, 2012 14:02

16^th Post

Robert wrote:
Thanks Steve, we are of like minds on this one. ;-)

LOL, I remember as a young kid I had an old Hanimex flash gun, Dixon's special probably. Just for fun I would short the trigger connector with a paperclip and make the gun fire.....usually you got sparks across the connector, so you can imagine what would happen if that was plugged into a DSLR.

On a separate note: a few years go I had a massive mecablitz anti-personnel flash on a Rolliecord 5A. That thing had a separate lead acid battery in a bag with shoulder strap. It was tremendously powerful, in fact there was a real 'thump' when the tube fired.

All was fine until one day there was a hell of an ear piercing crack sound, a really bad smell, and bits of flash head stem casing scattered around the room....the capacitor had exploded and blown a hole in the stem.

This is what happens when you buy high voltage devices that contain capacitors from a jumble sale.

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