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| Assessment of the abilities of the Fuji XT2 v Nikon D500 whilst doing flamenco dance photography. | Rate Topic |
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| Posted by jk: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 02:40 | 1st Post |
| Context: I shoot flamenco dance photographs which usually occurs in low natural light or in mixed lighting (halogen, tungsten, fluorescent tubes) plus I also do some additional commercial and publicity shooting as well as my own personal shooting of portraits, travel and landscape. Background: I have shot film, and since 1998 digital photos. One of the persistent challenges that has been present is grain or digital noise in high ISO situations where the natural light is of low intensity or quality. Many people in the past used to put their cameras away when shooting colour at ISO400 and the light levels had dropped below 1/30 sec, and a wide open aperture. Those shooting B&W and having a darkroom could push on until ISO1600, but at that point golf ball sized grain became an issue. In early digital cameras the issues remained the same but with digital noise in one or all of the RGB channels. Shooting RAW and using aggressive noise reduction was a possibility but there were always challenges. Then in 2007 Nikon introduced the D3 and life was made so much easier if you could afford this wonderful camera. Then one to two years later they introduced the D3S and also the D700. The world of low light photography was now open to all serious amateurs. At the same time as introducing the D3 they improved the AF performance so it now behaved very reproducibly in low light (EV1-5). This improvement has been seen in all the modern digital prosumer cameras in the ensuing yearsThis was all in the era of the DSLR. Then came mirrorless cameras usually in cheap point'n'shoot cameras but that all changed in 2010 when Fujifilm introduced the X100. This camera provided great handling and brought a 12MP sensor whose colour and quality was awesome but the AF was slow like all mirrorless cameras. Subsequent releases of Fuji cameras suffered, to different degrees, with this AF slowness but all the time Fuji were improving the AF speed. The Fuji XT1 was released in 2014 with a promise that its 16MP could equal the DSLRs that were out there. Without a doubt the results from RAW files was just as awesome or better than the X100 quality and indeed due to its small size and improved AF it seemed like the answer to the heavy DSLRs. However all was not rosy in the garden, the EVF refresh rate was an issue and the AF still not up to that which was available in DSLRs in low light (EV5), and so sports and wildlife photographers struggled while some others marvelled that finally they had a small, light, high quality camera. The release of the Fuji XT2 in September 2016 has changed this with a vengeance. The step change is similar to that experienced with the Nikon D3. The XT2 now focusses as fast as my Nikon D3S and perhaps also the D500 in low and normal lighting conditions. However the D500 is a shade more sophisticated and works well to the extent that I am starting to challenge my need for FX cameras. This comparison is based on 12MP D3S v 20MP D500 DSLRs. Then you throw a 24MP DX (APS-C) mirrorless camera into the mix and do a comparison and there starts to be a degree of apples versus oranges comparisons so we need to be careful to couch any findings with the correct setting of expectations. My assessment criteria: 1. Focus accuracy 2. Focus speed 3. Handling 4. Hi ISO noise 5. Ease of use (Difficult as this is very personal). I did a flamenco dance shoot recently and I tried to keep my shooting as normal as possible but I shot with an XT2 with 56mm f1.2 lens at 1/250 f5.6 and a Nikon D500 with 200-500m f5.6 AFS VR lens at 1/250 at f5.6. Both cameras were used at ISO 3200 or 6400. I always shoot in Manual mode so ISO 3200/6400 with f4 or f5.6 and 1/125 or 1/250. AF is set to AF-S or AF-C depending on the dance sequences. I also shoot in Single shot mode except occasionally I use CL to capture short sequences. Image results were nearly indistinguishable. Indeed if I didnt know which camera took the images it would be nearly impossible to assess. Results: Focus accuracy was from both cameras was a huge surprise to me as I expected the D500 to blow away the XT2. It didnt it was nearly identical. Focus accuracy under the same conditions was nearly identical. Focus speed was similar to the D500, in that I never waited for focus to be achieved before shooting as this is not effective in this type of dance photography. You shoot when you see the image. The handling on the Fuji XT2 was something I have come to enjoy in the last two weeks. Sorry Nikon you have dropped behind in the UI and handling stakes. The Fuji is so easy to work with under dark conditions with the aperture and shutter-speed and ISO all being to hand. The only problem is the EVF refresh rate which left me with short black out periods where I didnt see where the dancer had moved to. I dont know if this is entirely due to the EVF refresh rate but I suspect it is. Hi ISO noise, what is that? A thing of the past! Ease of use will be a thing that will rankle with some. What is one person's easy is awkward to another. I will keep it simple and say that from this point forward I dont have to take my Nikon kit to a shoot to be successful with my flamenco shoots. The Fuji XT2 is definitely there where the XT1 was just as good for static shots I couldn't use it for fast moving dance sequences. One small bug bear is the EVF rate leave you with visually missed moments as the EVF refreshes after an exposure. I think this will this improve with the camera switched to Performance Boost mode but I dont know until next time when I have time to test. Conclusions: So at this point in time I am thinking what happens next? Do I get rid of all my Nikon kit? At this point in time I think this may be too radical a move but I do think I will release a lot of Nikon kit to eBay. Do I get another XT2 and trade in my XT1? Actually I think my XT1 handles very well and has some handling features that are better than the XT2. What items are these? It is mainly around my familiarity with the menus and getting to what I need quickly. this will probably improve as I use the XT2 more. I will probably get another XT2 as soon as I reduce my Nikon inventory. Do I need to get a Fuji 50-140mm f2.8 and 16-55 f2.8 lens? Only if I get rid of some of my Nikon kit so that this is a zero cost option as actually I want the 10-24mm f4, 16mm f1.4, 16-55mm f2.8 and 50-140mm f2.8 and probably the 80mm f2.8. Impressed? Yes, you bet I am. Thank you Fuji for a paradigm shift in the camera from XT1 to XT2. There are still some things that need to improve mainly around the menus and firmware and some small pieces such as tethered control of the camera. Also the camera tethering software needs to be provided for both Mac and Windows environments.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 02:46 | 2nd Post |
So you want to see some results.      All these images are straight into Lightroom and then directly exported as web sized images with NO post processing at all, not even sharpening. All are the full frame, with no cropping.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 04:06 | 3rd Post |
| Thanks for the appraisal JK, very comprehensive. Although I'm not about to discard my lovely D3! I don't agree that FX is displaced by a smaller sensor, no matter how good it is. Even FX is too small in my book... The smaller the sensor the greater the DoF, reducing subject separation. The sample images require a password, could you post them to this forum please?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 05:00 | 4th Post |
| In the report I mention the EVF blackout. This can be reduced by putting the camera into High Performance mode which increases the EVF refresh rate but this effect battery usage. This EVF blackout is much more noticeable on the XT1 than the XT2. The XT2 is definitely a big step forward.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 05:37 | 5th Post |
jk wrote:Unfortunately you cant really zoom these pictures as I have made them small so they dont get botted. Thanks JK, that's good, I can see how difficult it must be to capture the action, expression and mood of these events. Images 1949 and 1930 I like best, image 1949 is suffering a little with a distracting background which was what I was alluding to when I said I would prefer the largest format available, which together with a very fast lens like the 85-f1.4, can improve separation. I think subject separation is very important and lifts an image to the viewers attention. I think we have to decide if we are making a true photographic record or a piece of art to appeal to the viewers eye. I feel in most cases the latter is my objective. An artist can include or exclude, emphasise or subdue and guide the viewers eye to the subject in a drawing or painting much more easily than a photographer can in a photograph. However, using technique and technology a photographer does have subtle ways of achieving separation without resorting to heavy handed Photoshop effects.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 05:41 | 6th Post |
| Updated the files with new images directly into the gallery. Take a look now at these 1MB small images but compared to a large JPG image of 23MB they are not great.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 05:51 | 7th Post |
| Thanks JK, much better to see the detail. Very interesting
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 15:22 | 8th Post |
| I think you are just trying to convince me to buy an XT2, Jonathan. From my experience with the XT1, it has a number of annoyances but its Achilles heel is the blackout time. It's hopeless trying to keep track of a moving subject if the subject is large in the frame...if it moves out of shot during this blackout, it takes an age to find it and refocus. It's like working in handcuffs. Yes you can back off the zoom to make tracking easier, but you then have to sectionally enlarge to get the same image size with commensurate loss of quality. I notice the extra battery grip for the XT2 now has two batteries....no doubt to facilitate the turbo performances that seem to be necessary to help reduce the blackout. Hmm. It sounds like a step forward from the XT1 but I will need to test it with a battery pack on to see if it can replace a mirror body for wildlife. Thanks for the report.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 15:28 | 9th Post |
Robert wrote:jk wrote: Of course he could always sit further back and use a longer lens. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Judith: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 17:08 | 10th Post |
| Sounds interesting. Would love one as a holiday camera as I can't be bothered dragging the dslr kit along with me but it's a little out of my price range at the moment. Lol. Will just have to settle for my p&s till the bank balance improves. Can't believe youre actually going to sell kit, JK. As for the high ISO...I'm not sure why so many people wax lyrical about the high ISO capabilities of the latest cameras. Yes, you can take the photos but at iso6400 the quality is pretty bad. I found this out at the weekend when I was shooting a birthday party for a client and my flash decided not to work which forced me to use the pop up and what ambient light there was at iso6400. I really needed to go higher than that but couldn't as I could see how bad the noise was. The photos were useable but only just and only after a lot of work in ps. Argh!  When I was able to use iso3200 the quality was much better but don't think I'd want to go higher than that.
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| Posted by Eric: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 17:36 | 11th Post |
Judith wrote:Sounds interesting. Would love one as a holiday camera as I can't be bothered dragging the dslr kit along with me but it's a little out of my price range at the moment. Lol. Will just have to settle for my p&s till the bank balance improves. Can't believe youre actually going to sell kit, JK. If you are shooting under indoor candescent light you will find that noise is much more evident than shooting outdoor in equivalent darkness at the same ISO. There is probably some scientific reason for this but it appears to me that there is more colour breakup of the red end of the spectrum evident in darker areas of the image, that seem to amplify the graininess. Hey Judith...if JK is right about the XT2 performance improvement I will have an XT1 plus 18-135 lens going very soon. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri Oct 21st, 2016 17:37 | 12th Post |
| No for the moment no Nikon is going on sale. While the Fuji is very capable the Nikons are very well understood by me. The Fuji flash support is very poor as TTL flash protocol is proprietary. At this point in time I have all I really need. A D750 would be nice but my foresight says that a 'D500 but with FX sensor' is coming in January and that would be my end point.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Judith: Sat Oct 22nd, 2016 15:11 | 13th Post |
Eric wrote:
Ah...didn't realise that. They were very grainy. Would have been fine if they wanted gritty BWs but not for a child's birthday. As for your unwanted XT1, tempting, but alas it would have to be stupidly cheap and I rather suspect you want to finance the xt2 with the sale LOL.
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| Posted by Judith: Sat Oct 22nd, 2016 15:14 | 14th Post |
jk wrote:No for the moment no Nikon is going on sale. While the Fuji is very capable the Nikons are very well understood by me. The Fuji flash support is very poor as TTL flash protocol is proprietary. Ha! You keep threatening to sell some kit and never bring yourself to do it!  You have a D800, why you eyeing up a d750 - you don't need it 
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| Posted by Eric: Sat Oct 22nd, 2016 16:28 | 15th Post |
Judith wrote:jk wrote:....shush you up girl....he's eyeing up my D750. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Judith: Sat Oct 22nd, 2016 16:34 | 16th Post |
| Oops!!!
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| Posted by jk: Sat Oct 22nd, 2016 17:04 | 17th Post |
| To respond to Judith question about the D800 v. D750. Good question as the D750 is just a newer D800 with some extra niceties. I never wanted a 36MP camera. I have said that 20-24MP is enough for my needs and also if the image is reasonable well composed it is enough. If you want to crop small sections out then 36 or more, say 50MP is required. I have a full range of lenses that allow me to capture it well enough. Re the sale of equipment - if you sell to a dealer then they give you a 1/3 of its value then double it for their resale. If you sell on commission they take 20% anyway. So if you invested £1000 in a camera then with depreciation and dealer trade in you are lucky to get £250-300. For me I would rather have some 'low value extra cameras' which I can give away to worthy causes or sell cheaply and undercut a dealer.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Judith: Sat Oct 22nd, 2016 19:11 | 18th Post |
jk wrote:
I know a worthy cause.
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| Posted by Eric: Sun Oct 23rd, 2016 04:40 | 19th Post |
jk wrote:To respond to Judith question about the D800 v. D750. If you are prepared to endure the potential frustrations of ebay, most good quality used items reach retailers resale prices...or more. You may then lose 14% to eBay/PayPal but the math suggests it's worth doing. Your benevolence is commendable, but I derive a degree of satisfaction in funding new purchase subsidised by the sale of older unused items. Of course there's a degree of diminishing return, as I am running out of things to sell. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Judith: Sun Oct 23rd, 2016 05:22 | 20th Post |
| I agree Eric. I've sold loads of old photography cr....gems on eBay and have always got a decent or better than expected price for them. In some cases I actually got more than I paid for stuff that was second or third hand to me. My most recent sale was an old 28-200 nikkor for which a deater offered me £50 and an eBay buyer paid £80. Highest I'd seen them sell for was £90 so I got a decent price. Most of you haven't seen what I've seen many times Ie JK in full Gollum mode standing in front of his cupboard full of Nikon gear, wide eyed with glee, saying "my preciouses" "preeeeeeeciouuuussss".... 
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| Posted by jk: Sun Oct 23rd, 2016 05:33 | 21st Post |
Judith wrote: I agree Eric. I've sold loads of old photography cr....gems on eBay and have always got a decent or better than expected price for them. In some cases I actually got more than I paid for stuff that was second or third hand to me. My most recent sale was an old 28-200 nikkor for which a deater offered me £50 and an eBay buyer paid £80. Highest I'd seen them sell for was £90 so I got a decent price. So you didnt want any of my treasures.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Judith: Sun Oct 23rd, 2016 05:48 | 22nd Post |
| You only ever let me drool wi envy in front of that cupboard. Oooooooooo....I've just noticed my handbag is back!!!
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| Posted by Eric: Sun Oct 23rd, 2016 08:15 | 23rd Post |
Judith wrote:
That's put me right of my lunch! 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Sun Oct 23rd, 2016 12:37 | 24th Post |
| I'll let you get your Scottish notes out or get you to do money transfer next time you are over.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Thu Oct 27th, 2016 10:05 | 25th Post |
| I suppose the focus speed of the XT1 isn't THAT bad.... Attachment: _DSF4641.jpg (Downloaded 18 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Thu Oct 27th, 2016 10:05 | 26th Post |
Then again that old Lumix FZ1000 doesn't do too bad either..... Attachment: P1190534b.JPG (Downloaded 18 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Thu Oct 27th, 2016 15:06 | 27th Post |
| Yes but you can tell straight away which has the larger sensor!
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Thu Oct 27th, 2016 17:33 | 28th Post |
jk wrote:Yes but you can tell straight away which has the larger sensor! Indeed. The LUMIX also has a slower response time and longer blackout than the XT. So it's amazing it caught anything like a flying critter.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by highlander: Sun Nov 13th, 2016 10:39 | 29th Post |
| I have ditched my Nikon gear and don't regret it for one minute. Yes, I would like the XT2 but buying a used XT1 meant more lenses and glass last a lot longer than bodies, sadly. I thoroughly recommend the 16-55 f2.8. I bought one a week back and its focus is very fast, even on the XT1, its almost silent, and the results are stunning. So much so I am selling my 14mm and 35mm primes. I am keeping my Zeiss Touit 50mm because I love the results from it and it is a true 1:1 macro which Fuji don't make at the moment. Close focus is so close you can actually bang the camera on the subject and knock your own nose in the process!
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Nov 13th, 2016 10:46 | 30th Post |
| Sorted! Mouse button bounce or the mysteries of the internet perhaps...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Sun Nov 13th, 2016 11:08 | 31st Post |
highlander wrote:I have ditched my Nikon gear and don't regret it for one minute. Yes, I would like the XT2 but buying a used XT1 meant more lenses and glass last a lot longer than bodies, sadly. I thoroughly recommend the 16-55 f2.8. I bought one a week back and its focus is very fast, even on the XT1, its almost silent, and the results are stunning. So much so I am selling my 14mm and 35mm primes. I am keeping my Zeiss Touit 50mm because I love the results from it and it is a true 1:1 macro which Fuji don't make at the moment. Close focus is so close you can actually bang the camera on the subject and knock your own nose in the process! Jan...I've sent you a PM
____________________ Eric |
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