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Moderated by: chrisbet,

Bracketing issue

Author	Post

Posted by Eric: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 08:23

1^st Post

I suppose it's only taken me 20 years to notice it and even then on the last commercial shoot.

I had taken to bracketing exposures when shooting kitchens. The diverse lighting from atriums to large patio doors mixed with contrasts fittings mean I either had to hide strobes everywhere to light dark voids ....or bracket and overlay exposures to fill in the dark holes. So lately, being quicker at photoshop than setting up lighting, I have adopted the overlay approach.

To do this, I needed and used a sturdy tripod, to ensure fidelity of positioning.

But here's the rub, as they say....

Yesterday, I needed to clone out some spurious wall light cabling ( kitchen not quite finished) and had to zoom right into background detail to match up some awkward shadows. I then noticed that the detail at that level wasn't as sharp as I expected. Zoomed out the images look sharp and good....but down at 1000% blow up I wasn't so sure.

When I compared the first set of bracketed images with the 'set up' images I was surprised to see that there was even more detail in the set up images.

The answer must be mirror rattle? Yes I know about mirror lock...but it slows up multiple shooting situations.

The initial single shot setup images were immaculate. The 3burst bracket shots were, albeit minimally, inferior.

Despite being mounted (or maybe because!) on a heavy rigid tripod I suspect that mirror vibration was being amplified through the 3images burst. This is borne out by the first shot in the sequence being better than the other two....although exposure could account for some of this.

Something I had never considered. Fortunately the visual difference isn't apparent till you zoom right into 'bottles on the far shelves' .....but an erudite lesson how it's easy to compromise your efforts.

____________________
Eric

Posted by Robert: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 13:35

2^nd Post

What camera Eric?

Were you using your Grip release tripod head?

____________________
Robert.

Posted by Eric: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 16:13

3^rd Post

Robert wrote:
What camera Eric?

Were you using your Grip release tripod head?
750

Yes

____________________
Eric

Posted by jk: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 16:14

4^th Post

Which camera were you using? D750 or D3?

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
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Posted by Robert: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 16:33

5^th Post

Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
What camera Eric?

Were you using your Grip release tripod head?
750

Yes
24Mp, twice the D3 density. That, coupled with the mirror slap and your tall ball joint seem to me a recipe for shake. I am very suspicious of that ball joint, way too much leverage and distance from the tripod top to the lens, may be very convenient but in my view too flexi in critical circumstances.

Easy to confirm, with and without the tripod head, with and without shutter delay.

I usually use the self timer set to 5 seconds if I don't have a remote to hand.

____________________
Robert.

Posted by jk: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 16:40

6^th Post

If D750 then I have to agree with Robert.
The D3 is much more sturdy and absorbs the mirror slap much better. The D750 is lighter and has higher pixel density so almost begs for the problem of vibrations.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by Eric: Sat Mar 12th, 2016 18:04

7^th Post

Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
What camera Eric?

Were you using your Grip release tripod head?
750

Yes
24Mp, twice the D3 density. That, coupled with the mirror slap and your tall ball joint seem to me a recipe for shake. I am very suspicious of that ball joint, way too much leverage and distance from the tripod top to the lens, may be very convenient but in my view too flexi in critical circumstances.

Easy to confirm, with and without the tripod head, with and without shutter delay.

I usually use the self timer set to 5 seconds if I don't have a remote to hand. I think we are talking at cross purposes. It wasn't my portable tripod with the manfrotto latest pistol grip...which I think you have seen me use?

it's my very big old studio tripod with the original grip. It's so firm and heavy I don't believe that was moving. I have trouble moving it myself!

It could be the extra pixels and lighter body of the D750....but as I said the first shot in the 3sequence was ok...it seemed to be the cumulative effect of the next shots.

I need to check the sequence ( eg under over normal) it's possible the under exposure was first .... which would be faster shutter and more saturated, giving extra detail.

I stress the difference is very minor and I don't expect to be bracketing images on a tripod again. Lol

____________________
Eric

Posted by Robert: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 03:43

8^th Post

Sorry, didn't realise you had two grip heads, although while it may be difficult to align on the subject, anything which raises the body above the tripod head will increase the leverage at the head and allow at least some deflection. There must be some deflection (wobble?) there, else there would be no blurred image?

I hadn't realised the D750 was a small FX body, this is why I want a D3, I have to say I'm not very familiar with the latest Nikon bodies. I will embrace the weight and 'low' pixel count of the 'old' and heavy D3 body for the benefit of improved stability and lack of fussiness gained.

I use a hydraulic video head on my heavy tripod, that is pretty well rock solid and any movement there is, is well damped. I would use a heavier, larger video head if I could find one I can afford.

Final thought... Was your tripod stood on carpet? My heavy tripod has spiked feet, I always stamp the spikes well into the ground before taking photographs, carpet or a soft (wood) floor could well account for minor vibrational movement. No matter how solid the tripod, it needs a rock solid foundation, pun intended.

____________________
Robert.

Posted by jk: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 07:03

9^th Post

Eric wrote: Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
What camera Eric?

Were you using your Grip release tripod head?
750

Yes
24Mp, twice the D3 density. That, coupled with the mirror slap and your tall ball joint seem to me a recipe for shake. I am very suspicious of that ball joint, way too much leverage and distance from the tripod top to the lens, may be very convenient but in my view too flexi in critical circumstances.

Easy to confirm, with and without the tripod head, with and without shutter delay.

I usually use the self timer set to 5 seconds if I don't have a remote to hand. I think we are talking at cross purposes. It wasn't my portable tripod with the manfrotto latest pistol grip...which I think you have seen me use?

it's my very big old studio tripod with the original grip. It's so firm and heavy I don't believe that was moving. I have trouble moving it myself!

It could be the extra pixels and lighter body of the D750....but as I said the first shot in the 3sequence was ok...it seemed to be the cumulative effect of the next shots.

I need to check the sequence ( eg under over normal) it's possible the under exposure was first .... which would be faster shutter and more saturated, giving extra detail.

I stress the difference is very minor and I don't expect to be bracketing images on a tripod again. Lol What you dont use HDR.
I thought would be your next project.
:lol:

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by Eric: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 15:11

10^th Post

jk wrote:
Eric wrote: Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
What camera Eric?

Were you using your Grip release tripod head?
750

Yes
24Mp, twice the D3 density. That, coupled with the mirror slap and your tall ball joint seem to me a recipe for shake. I am very suspicious of that ball joint, way too much leverage and distance from the tripod top to the lens, may be very convenient but in my view too flexi in critical circumstances.

Easy to confirm, with and without the tripod head, with and without shutter delay.

I usually use the self timer set to 5 seconds if I don't have a remote to hand. I think we are talking at cross purposes. It wasn't my portable tripod with the manfrotto latest pistol grip...which I think you have seen me use?

it's my very big old studio tripod with the original grip. It's so firm and heavy I don't believe that was moving. I have trouble moving it myself!

It could be the extra pixels and lighter body of the D750....but as I said the first shot in the 3sequence was ok...it seemed to be the cumulative effect of the next shots.

I need to check the sequence ( eg under over normal) it's possible the under exposure was first .... which would be faster shutter and more saturated, giving extra detail.

I stress the difference is very minor and I don't expect to be bracketing images on a tripod again. Lol What you dont use HDR.
I thought would be your next project.
:lol:

Most of my shots are garish enough, without adding HDR.
:lol:

____________________
Eric

Posted by Eric: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 15:18

11^th Post

Robert wrote:
Sorry, didn't realise you had two grip heads, although while it may be difficult to align on the subject, anything which raises the body above the tripod head will increase the leverage at the head and allow at least some deflection. There must be some deflection (wobble?) there, else there would be no blurred image?

I hadn't realised the D750 was a small FX body, this is why I want a D3, I have to say I'm not very familiar with the latest Nikon bodies. I will embrace the weight and 'low' pixel count of the 'old' and heavy D3 body for the benefit of improved stability and lack of fussiness gained.

I use a hydraulic video head on my heavy tripod, that is pretty well rock solid and any movement there is, is well damped. I would use a heavier, larger video head if I could find one I can afford.

Final thought... Was your tripod stood on carpet? My heavy tripod has spiked feet, I always stamp the spikes well into the ground before taking photographs, carpet or a soft (wood) floor could well account for minor vibrational movement. No matter how solid the tripod, it needs a rock solid foundation, pun intended.
Rubber feet on wood floor...suspect client might have objected to the spikes in her £90k kitchen. Yup...£90k. Crazy.

I wonder if the lack of the pro damping in the D3 Is the issue here. I seriously don't think it's the tripod head, despite it being a grip head. Bear in mind it's tension has been wound up so high it would take my Mamiya on its side ...without it sinking. I haven't had the strength to reduce the grip, since going digital. Lol it's very firm.

I will do a test when I get a minute to lay this ghost.

____________________
Eric

Posted by Robert: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 15:54

12^th Post

Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
Sorry, didn't realise you had two grip heads, although while it may be difficult to align on the subject, anything which raises the body above the tripod head will increase the leverage at the head and allow at least some deflection. There must be some deflection (wobble?) there, else there would be no blurred image?

I hadn't realised the D750 was a small FX body, this is why I want a D3, I have to say I'm not very familiar with the latest Nikon bodies. I will embrace the weight and 'low' pixel count of the 'old' and heavy D3 body for the benefit of improved stability and lack of fussiness gained.

I use a hydraulic video head on my heavy tripod, that is pretty well rock solid and any movement there is, is well damped. I would use a heavier, larger video head if I could find one I can afford.

Final thought... Was your tripod stood on carpet? My heavy tripod has spiked feet, I always stamp the spikes well into the ground before taking photographs, carpet or a soft (wood) floor could well account for minor vibrational movement. No matter how solid the tripod, it needs a rock solid foundation, pun intended.
Rubber feet on wood floor...suspect client might have objected to the spikes in her £90k kitchen. Yup...£90k. Crazy.

I wonder if the lack of the pro damping in the D3 Is the issue here. I seriously don't think it's the tripod head, despite it being a grip head. Bear in mind it's tension has been wound up so high it would take my Mamiya on its side ...without it sinking. I haven't had the strength to reduce the grip, since going digital. Lol it's very firm.

I will do a test when I get a minute to lay this ghost.
Nothing worse than fussy clients! Rubber, flexible rubber? Mmmm.

As you say the D3 is so smooth I can't see that vibrating.

____________________
Robert.

Posted by jk: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 18:05

13^th Post

Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
Sorry, didn't realise you had two grip heads, although while it may be difficult to align on the subject, anything which raises the body above the tripod head will increase the leverage at the head and allow at least some deflection. There must be some deflection (wobble?) there, else there would be no blurred image?

I hadn't realised the D750 was a small FX body, this is why I want a D3, I have to say I'm not very familiar with the latest Nikon bodies. I will embrace the weight and 'low' pixel count of the 'old' and heavy D3 body for the benefit of improved stability and lack of fussiness gained.

I use a hydraulic video head on my heavy tripod, that is pretty well rock solid and any movement there is, is well damped. I would use a heavier, larger video head if I could find one I can afford.

Final thought... Was your tripod stood on carpet? My heavy tripod has spiked feet, I always stamp the spikes well into the ground before taking photographs, carpet or a soft (wood) floor could well account for minor vibrational movement. No matter how solid the tripod, it needs a rock solid foundation, pun intended.
Rubber feet on wood floor...suspect client might have objected to the spikes in her £90k kitchen. Yup...£90k. Crazy.

I wonder if the lack of the pro damping in the D3 Is the issue here. I seriously don't think it's the tripod head, despite it being a grip head. Bear in mind it's tension has been wound up so high it would take my Mamiya on its side ...without it sinking. I haven't had the strength to reduce the grip, since going digital. Lol it's very firm.

I will do a test when I get a minute to lay this ghost.
Nothing worse than fussy clients! Rubber, flexible rubber? Mmmm.

As you say the D3 is so smooth I can't see that vibrating.
£90k guuuulp!

D3S is better yet as it has Quiet mode which reduces mirror flap and shutter noise. However both D3 and D3S can mirror lockup which is better yet.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by TomOC: Sun Mar 13th, 2016 23:31

14^th Post

Eric-

The only other possibility that comes to mind is this - are you using auto focus?

Seems to me that auto focus plus changing exposure while bracketing could give you some issues? Never really tested this but always felt that the auto focus and changing aperture and/or shutter speed was weird.

Haven't been in forums much lately...Hi to all of you guys/gals

Tom

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by Robert: Mon Mar 14th, 2016 03:55

15^th Post

Hi back Tom, nice to see you.

The AF thing could be worth looking at too, good point. There are so many things happening in the process of taking photographs nowadays, some are forgotten.

____________________
Robert.

Posted by Eric: Mon Mar 14th, 2016 10:16

16^th Post

TomOC wrote:
Eric-

The only other possibility that comes to mind is this - are you using auto focus?

Seems to me that auto focus plus changing exposure while bracketing could give you some issues? Never really tested this but always felt that the auto focus and changing aperture and/or shutter speed was weird.

Haven't been in forums much lately...Hi to all of you guys/gals

Tom
Hi Tom
I fix aperture and let bracket vary shutter speed...so I wouldn't have expected any refocusing.

This is only the second time I used the D750 in this sort of situation and never looked at the first shoot results this deeply.

____________________
Eric

Posted by Eric: Mon Mar 14th, 2016 10:35

17^th Post

I haven't noticed this effect previously, despite using the same technique, same tripod, same lens. The only difference is the camera.

It does point to either better damping in the D3 or an artefact of the extra pixels in the D750.

____________________
Eric

Posted by Eric: Mon Mar 14th, 2016 10:37

18^th Post

jk wrote:
Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
Robert wrote:
Sorry, didn't realise you had two grip heads, although while it may be difficult to align on the subject, anything which raises the body above the tripod head will increase the leverage at the head and allow at least some deflection. There must be some deflection (wobble?) there, else there would be no blurred image?

I hadn't realised the D750 was a small FX body, this is why I want a D3, I have to say I'm not very familiar with the latest Nikon bodies. I will embrace the weight and 'low' pixel count of the 'old' and heavy D3 body for the benefit of improved stability and lack of fussiness gained.

I use a hydraulic video head on my heavy tripod, that is pretty well rock solid and any movement there is, is well damped. I would use a heavier, larger video head if I could find one I can afford.

Final thought... Was your tripod stood on carpet? My heavy tripod has spiked feet, I always stamp the spikes well into the ground before taking photographs, carpet or a soft (wood) floor could well account for minor vibrational movement. No matter how solid the tripod, it needs a rock solid foundation, pun intended.
Rubber feet on wood floor...suspect client might have objected to the spikes in her £90k kitchen. Yup...£90k. Crazy.

I wonder if the lack of the pro damping in the D3 Is the issue here. I seriously don't think it's the tripod head, despite it being a grip head. Bear in mind it's tension has been wound up so high it would take my Mamiya on its side ...without it sinking. I haven't had the strength to reduce the grip, since going digital. Lol it's very firm.

I will do a test when I get a minute to lay this ghost.
Nothing worse than fussy clients! Rubber, flexible rubber? Mmmm.

As you say the D3 is so smooth I can't see that vibrating.
£90k guuuulp!

D3S is better yet as it has Quiet mode which reduces mirror flap and shutter noise. However both D3 and D3S can mirror lockup which is better yet.
Celebrity chef. ;-)

She runs cookery courses in the place. I also photographed her other property...that kitchen was only £40k.

____________________
Eric

Posted by jk: Mon Mar 14th, 2016 10:58

19^th Post

Hi Tom,
Yes you have been quiet here and the Fuji forum.
I hope all is good with you and family healthwise.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by TomOC: Tue Mar 15th, 2016 02:18

20^th Post

Eric wrote:

Hi Tom
I fix aperture and let bracket vary shutter speed...so I wouldn't have expected any refocusing.

This is only the second time I used the D750 in this sort of situation and never looked at the first shoot results this deeply.

Figured as much, Eric but sounded like it was worth mentioning...

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by TomOC: Tue Mar 15th, 2016 02:19

21^st Post

jk wrote:
Hi Tom,
Yes you have been quiet here and the Fuji forum.
I hope all is good with you and family healthwise.
JK-

I did have a little health scare...too mean to be down for long but has me working on some rehab and still a touch tired.

I'll be back for sure :-)

Tom

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

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