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| 11 point focusing | Rate Topic |
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| Posted by Eric: Thu May 21st, 2015 12:28 | 1st Post |
| I thought I would start a new thread on this subject. Ok I am a Luddite. I have always used AF-S and single centre spot metering. I am aware that these modern camera can flash focus lights all over the screen and do something clever, but I have always shied away from dabbling with this witchcraft. But when I read Graham was having some success changing to this 11point focusing thingie, I am now thinking I need to drag myself out of the dark age and use some of these 21century features. The trouble is...I don't understand it. If I am shooting an object centre screen, what relevance do the other 10focus point have? In the case of bird photography, why does the positioning of the birds next door to your subject have any relevance? Similarly if I am lucky enough to fill the frame with a single bird, why would the disposition of its feet or beak have any relevance if I want the eyes kept in focus? Can someone explain how multipoint focusing works, as I am a right numptie on this one? 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Thu May 21st, 2015 12:56 | 2nd Post |
| Eric, There is some very clever logic/programming behind these multi-point fcusing features. I do not claim to understand them fully, although some Nikon rep's have tried to explain them to me. One of the tricks is to automagically follow the subject part focused on, based on the color. But of course, on a single-colour static object, in the centre of the frame, all those modern gizmos are of little consequence (grin). Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by Graham Whistler: Thu May 21st, 2015 13:14 | 3rd Post |
| Well done Eric I shall follow this with great interest. As you say I have used the single point system since I had Nikon Auto focus and for 99% of the time it has been spot on but with Macro work I still find manual focus works better for me. Now I am semi retired I have more time to explore new areas and hence my recent interest in bird photography. I find that even on the ground or wading in water they move all the time and single point does not always give you pin sharp.Birds in the air: I am still a long way off knowing what to do!!! Now I have changed to 11 point it is working better. Maybe it is just that my skill level is going up as I spend more time at it? Sadly the Nikon D810 instruction book even after reading all bits on auto focus has not been much help. Another retired pro photographer in our local camera club also has 810 but like me know that single point works best for most static subjects but told me to try 11 point thinking it may work better. I am learning but any help from any of our dslr.net Forum friends please would be great?
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Eric: Thu May 21st, 2015 14:10 | 4th Post |
| I suppose I am getting a bit mixed up with terminology....easy for me! What exactly does one do differently when using 11 point, 24point or 51point focusing? What is the procedure? Is this any different to the 3D focusing option? I know with this option that if I lock onto a focus point and the point of focus moves around the viewfinder, the camera will track it and keep the point in focus. With AF-C, the focus point can move closer or further away and the camera will again keep track and adjust focus. So combining these two features means if the subject is girating ( eg a flower in the breeze) you have a good chance of keeping the subject sharp in focus...especially if you use a fast shutter speed.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by TomOC: Thu May 21st, 2015 16:56 | 5th Post |
| Eric- Isn't the focus setting the dynamic focus that you want...if you start with center square and subject moves while you are half depressed with the shutter button, the focus square jumps along with the subject. Of course, I rarely use the Nikon out of studio lately so I really haven't checked this in real world...just how I remember it (and my memory is fading with age  Fuji doesn't have this problem - it's focus skills aren't quite up to Nikon level I'm even using Fuji with manual a lot Tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Fri May 22nd, 2015 07:29 | 6th Post |
| Eric, re: do differently One thing is using a different amount of sensors and CPU processing time, affecting the response time of the AF system). Do not dispair, I still remember a USA wildlife photographer admitting online he took many weeks to understand and use modern AF system to its maximum (especially with difficult light settings and moving subjects. Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by Eric: Fri May 22nd, 2015 09:26 | 7th Post |
TomOC wrote:Eric- The D750 has '3D focusing' which does that.... Off to read the manual. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri May 22nd, 2015 14:39 | 8th Post |
| BTW: There is a firmware upgrade for the D750. http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/fw/141.html
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Fri May 22nd, 2015 14:42 | 9th Post |
Eric wrote: I thought I would start a new thread on this subject.yep and it works time after time especially if you get the centre spot in the right place. I only use AFC Dynamic (however many points) for my flamenco shots where I know I want to 'track' a dancer and the point of interest face/hands/feet are not in the centre.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Fri May 22nd, 2015 16:49 | 10th Post |
jk wrote:BTW: There is a firmware upgrade for the D750. Thanks:thumbsup:
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Sat May 23rd, 2015 16:28 | 11th Post |
| So ...leaving aside 3D focusing ( which brings colour recognition to dynamic focusing) the principle of 9, 11, 24 or 51 point focusing is the same...it's just the size of the area referenced that differs. Yes? The choice of which number to use is therefore (presumably) purely dictated by the type of subject, its surroundings (or the size of the subject in the frame) and its mobility. Yes? I guess tha choice of 11point is for subjects that have limited differnt discernible reference points around the subject eg birds in flight, flower in grass, ducks on water... OR... the extent of movement of the subject in the viewfinder is not too great. Yes?
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Sat May 23rd, 2015 17:54 | 12th Post |
| Eric, Yes I am still here... I remarked some time ago that when I use my D3100 I tend to use it as a snapshot camera, I just grab it and press the button. I have it set on full auto, shock horror!! When I am greasy up to my armpits and just need a quick pic of some tremendously interesting bolt or floggle-toggle, I can't be a**ed to make manual adjustments, I just want a usable pic. Anyway I have remarked that often the auto can produce remarkably good images, better than I might expect had I made my own manual settings at times. I sometimes wonder why the auto can produce such good images. I seem to remember your reaction was to take the same image in both auto and using manual with my idea of what settings I thought appropriate for the scene, then compare the EXIF to perhaps reveal it's secret techniques. I have noticed that depending on the scene, in full auto, various focus points flash in and out as I compose and zoom the lens to optimise the image composition, they seem to lock on to points and features of the subject but any of the focus points can activate depending on the subject. I am wondering if you did the reverse of what I am doing and took some fully auto exposures, as well as some manual, or semi manual exposures, then compared the EXIF's and of course the images... Then perhaps that might clarify what these multi point focus points are actually doing. I realise my D3100 is somewhat primitive compared with some of the more modern bodies but it's the principle I am thinking of. Just a thought...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sat May 23rd, 2015 18:27 | 13th Post |
| I guess tha choice of 11point is for subjects that have limited differnt discernible reference points around the subject eg birds in flight. I agree Eric that is seeming to work well provided the subject remains fairly central. With a flock of birds in the air perhaps use 24? I do think that up to a max of 11 points they have a lot more processing power than the outer points.
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat May 23rd, 2015 20:49 | 14th Post |
|
The D750 has '3D focusing' which does that.... Off to read the manual.
I'm so out of it. I love the D800 but use less and less of the features - once I set it up I rarely make many changes...wasting some great technology, I'm sure. Now that I see Profoto studio strobes with internal batteries and TTL for Nikon, I might have to get more serious about learning what my camera can do... Tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Sun May 24th, 2015 03:32 | 15th Post |
Eric wrote:So ...leaving aside 3D focusing ( which brings colour recognition to dynamic focusing) the principle of 9, 11, 24 or 51 point focusing is the same...it's just the size of the area referenced that differs. Yes? Yes. In the reading materials on the Nikon website there is a good paper on the different AF types and their uses.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 24th, 2015 04:56 | 16th Post |
Graham Whistler wrote:I guess tha choice of 11point is for subjects that have limited differnt discernible reference points around the subject eg birds in flight. Good point about perimeter focus points processing power drop off. Gilbert also made a good point about the amount of effort taken out of AF speed using more sensors than necessary.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 24th, 2015 05:18 | 17th Post |
Robert wrote:Eric, Yes I am still here... I remarked some time ago that when I use my D3100 I tend to use it as a snapshot camera, I just grab it and press the button. I have it set on full auto, shock horror!! When I am greasy up to my armpits and just need a quick pic of some tremendously interesting bolt or floggle-toggle, I can't be a**ed to make manual adjustments, I just want a usable pic. Robert who? This all came about when Jan had difficulty focusing on an eider duck bobbing on ocean swell and then some maritime flora blowing in an on shore breeze. Yes we were in London. No, seriously, it was a very pleasant short break on the Northumberland coast. I started fiddling with her camera to see what alternative settings the new Panasonic offered...and then tried to cross reference these with the 'known' options on my D750. That's when I realised I didn't know diddlysquat about some of these functions on my new camera. Like, I was thrown as to what 3d focusing was ....and with the manual 200miles away (yes I know) I dug myself a numptie hole. You make a good point about auto settings. A lot of sophisticated and clever programming has gone into auto settings. As you may recall, when using photoshop, I frequently apply auto everything settings to an image just to see a point of difference. (Then revert and do manual corrections) Particularly after staring at monitors over time, it's easy for your eyes to miss colour casts, saturation and contrast on images. Quite often changing them drastically, even if it's for the worse, can reboot your seeing eye. So yes, a spell of auto shooting might be interesting. The problem Jan had was in truth multifaceted. 400mm equiv.....windy day....tripod in car 1mile away (duh) changing lighting (sun then black clouds) white and black subject moving about. I didn't even bother to get my camera out of the bag....but you know Jan!  Anyway, I think it's a matter of softly softly and trying out the different techniques. Like Graham is doing looking for improvements in success rate.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 24th, 2015 05:45 | 18th Post |
| In fairness exposure calculation was a bit tricky...even for the D750. So come on....what exposure compensation and AF would you use for this situation???? Attachment: duck4.jpg (Downloaded 33 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 24th, 2015 05:45 | 19th Post |
| I waited till they swam into the lea of the harbour. Attachment: duck2.jpg (Downloaded 33 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 24th, 2015 05:52 | 20th Post |
| and another Attachment: duck1.jpg (Downloaded 33 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 24th, 2015 06:09 | 21st Post |
| The wife did find an alternative camera support to the missing tripod...but I refused to bring it with us. Attachment: support.jpg (Downloaded 59 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Sun May 24th, 2015 15:49 | 22nd Post |
| Here is the document. http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Learn-And-Explore/Article/ftlzi4po/af-area-modes.html
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Sun May 24th, 2015 15:51 | 23rd Post |
Eric wrote:The wife did find an alternative camera support to the missing tripod...but I refused to bring it with us. Just need a set of wheels and it will be a great portable camera support.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Mon May 25th, 2015 05:21 | 24th Post |
| JK thanks for that link a great help. I shall go down to our local reserve at Titchfield Haven later this week when this fuss has died down.Cutting from yesterdays paper you can not even park there at the moment! Later in week will go an see how I get on with all this new info. Attachment: Yellowlegs153.jpg (Downloaded 51 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Eric: Mon May 25th, 2015 13:32 | 25th Post |
jk wrote:Here is the document. Thanks JK I think one of the big issues with these different modes, is being prepared (as in mindful) to use them. I don't or rather haven't been out to specifically shoot birds or horses or motor vehicles much of late. A lot of my photography has been happenstance.....walking around on holiday taking things that interest me. So there is a discipline involved in setting the camera up for the task ahead. I suppose the worst example was me in France last year, when we wandered round a 'static' chateau, then motored on to wildlife park. I didn't even think to switch from AF-S! And as a result some of the more agile critters were less than sharp. Methinks it's time to get out and use the camera to the full.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Mon May 25th, 2015 15:04 | 26th Post |
| Well, I may seem a bit of a philistine but unless 'photography' is the first consideration and there are no really tough obstacles to creating an acceptable image, I am more than happy to leave the D3100 to it's own devices. I still check the image for sharpness and general exposure of the critical areas but on the whole with the average scene, and often with quite demanding scenes, the fully auto gets the job done very nicely for me. If I were wanting top quality I would of course be using the D200 with a fast, non zoom, non AF lens... On a tripod! But no doubt many would consider that approach more akin to that of Fred Flintstone.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Mon May 25th, 2015 15:26 | 27th Post |
| Robert, you crack me up! I think that the old addage of whatever gets the job done well is the key. What works for one is sub-optimal for another. If your images are sharp and correctly exposed then how you got there is immaterial unless you are in a race!
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Mon May 25th, 2015 16:48 | 28th Post |
Robert wrote:Well, I may seem a bit of a philistine but unless 'photography' is the first consideration and there are no really tough obstacles to creating an acceptable image, I am more than happy to leave the D3100 to it's own devices. I still check the image for sharpness and general exposure of the critical areas but on the whole with the average scene, and often with quite demanding scenes, the fully auto gets the job done very nicely for me. Sorry but I wouldn't switch from Aperture to Auto. It's not a case of getting top quality...which we know is only achieved by your formula. But it's about maximising quality for the available equipment. I would always want to have control over the aperture that's best for the image and best for the lens performance. I acknowledge that the average scene with static subject will be adequately captured by Auto. But looking at the aperture, shutter speed and ISO settings that Jans camera selects on Auto would not be my choice. The algorithm that chooses when to lift/lower ISO as opposed to changing aperture or shutter seems peculiar. But of course that's not a Nikon. Lol
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Mon May 25th, 2015 17:08 | 29th Post |
jk wrote:Robert, you crack me up! I agree to a degree, but in the interests of continuing the debate...do you not feel it's a slippy slope? There's thin line between 'fit for purpose' and 'good enough'. I just took some kitchen photos for a customer. ( yes I have retired but it was a series of 6 kitchens that should have been finished and done before April) The customer ( who makes and fits the kitchens) came back with an email saying "STUNNING IMAGES!". They were over the moon with the quality. I thought they were average ...in fact ....part of me was already saying †I've retired...so if they are no good, what the heck, they just won't ask me again...good!†The point is ...taking images to meet an average albeit acceptable standard doesn't do us any favours. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Mon May 25th, 2015 17:09 | 30th Post |
| Well what convinced me was the first photograph I took with my new, ex-Eric Field D200 IR that I took when I got home from collecting it. Using the 18-105 UV zoom from my D3100, I took a picture of the boat 'Oakdale' which featured in another thread hand held because I was just interested to see the IR effect in my own surroundings. In the image when enlarged to 100% on my computer screen I can just make out the legs of some of the cows browsing in a field almost 4 miles away. I didn't even see the cows when I took the photograph, although to be honest I didn't bother looking... Because I was photographing the boat and the hill behind. If my camera can resolve that level of detail, I am more than happy. It may of course be a result of the D200IR no longer having an anti-aliasing filter... I haven't bothered trying a comparative test against a standard D200 mainly because I am happy enough with the definition I get anyway, although perhaps if I am stuck for some amusement one fine day I will give it a go.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Mon May 25th, 2015 17:11 | 31st Post |
Robert wrote:Well what convinced me was the first photograph I took with my new, ex-Eric Field D200 IR that I took when I got home from collecting it. In fairness that was a b****y good D200.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Mon May 25th, 2015 17:34 | 32nd Post |
Eric wrote:
I think you are perhaps too hard on yourself Eric, YOU probably feel you could have done better, and that is what keeps your standards as high as they are. Some jobs I have done are a complete codge, but the client has been over the moon. I don't see the point in striving for absolute perfection when it isn't necessary. When the need arrises then wheel out the perfection, otherwise near enough IS good enough. Indeed, as far as image resolution is concerned I feel you can have too much detail in many photographs. I feel the absolute detail over the entire image is a bit of a distraction from the subject and the eye of the viewer, yes it's nice to see the texture of the plumage of a distant bird but we don't need to see each filament of the feathers. I have seen some of the finest botanic drawings ever made, the detail is stunning, the interpretation so good but they were made with quite blunt pencils with a gross resolution and paint brushes comparatively broad, yet the artist made these blunt tools portray to 'perfection' their subject, with no ambiguity about what they had drawn and coloured. What I am trying to say is the simple resolution is not as important as the execution of the work, the skill of the artist. Your client who was stunned by your Kitchen photographs wasn't looking at the resolution, he was looking at your artistic product. That does not require infinite definition, in my opinion, just adequate for the job.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Tue May 26th, 2015 05:03 | 33rd Post |
Robert wrote:Eric wrote: Well you may have a point or two there but my benchmark as far as bird photography is concerned is the clarity and definition of the whole bird. Most of the bird photos we have seen on here and elsewhere do not just have the eye sharp...the whole bird is within the zone of sharpness. It's fairly easy to lose the background when working with 800mm but less so if you only have 300mm and need to crop. Especially if the bird is sat on water. Lol Its also harder to keep the desired point of focus on the bird when it's twitching and moving erratically ...so a smaller aperture gives a margin for error. But I suppose this is where the sophisticated dynamic focusing may play its part. If it is able to sense and compensate for those rapid movements then larger apertures may be equally successful in keeping key detail sharp. Having said that, there will still be a trade off in optical quality going wider. On a personal note...I hate those artyfarty shallow dof pictures of things like meals ...where the front sprout is sharp but the rest of the meal is oof. Can't see the point in restricting the viewers attention to a tiny part of the meal. It's ok for portraits where people's eyes are important and ears not so...but carrying that technique into other subjects is plain daft. IMHO. Maybe. Coming from the commercial sector where the client want to show ALL the detail in the room, the installation, the machine...I have become locked into f8/f11 too much.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Wed May 27th, 2015 05:18 | 34th Post |
| Eric: I have become locked into f8/f11 too much. I agree 100%. The good news is now with modern DSLRs and good results from higher ISOs you do not need to lust after serious money F2.8 premium long lenses. Like you I had a busy life as a commercial advertising photographer and a lot of time with big cameras needing f22 or f32! Some of my Large Elinchrom studio flash units are so powerful I can no longer use them with a modern DSLR.
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Eric: Wed May 27th, 2015 13:55 | 35th Post |
Graham Whistler wrote:The good news is now with modern DSLRs and good results from higher ISOs you do not need to lust after serious money F2.8 premium long lenses.  Don't say that...I am currently selling off my pro gear and convincing people of the need for f2.8. Just sent a lens to Poland of all places. I didn't think anyone was left in Poland?
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sun Jun 21st, 2015 05:26 | 36th Post |
| I am at long last getting to grips with this auto focus and could kick myself for taking so long to get there. The main problem was finding out how to activate 11 or 51 etc points auto focus on the D810. Internet no real help and it was well hidden in Nikon D810 instruction book: Page 90 has most of the info but having set camera on in Menus 51 point dynamic area AF (even tells you for birds!) I went down to Titchfield Haven Bird Reserve yeat again and did not do much better. I could not even seem to be able to get the 810 out of AF-S single servo AF mode (so easy to do on previous Nikon DSLRs) Back to the drawing board and if all else fails read the instruction book yet again! Page 39 tells all!!!!! The AF-M focus has a little button in middle when pressed in you can activate all the auto focus commands using front sub command dial and or rear main command dial. I now go to reserve full of confidence of my new found ability to us my camera! Dull day but seemed to be working a bit better better. Perhaps the max f no on 80-400 lens of f5.6 is showing slight limitions of this lens in poor light compared with the much higher priced f2.8 lenses? Two days ago fine weather. All working well and getting the picture I wanted at long last!!! Avocets now with very newly hatched young! QED? Attachment: Advoset1337.jpg (Downloaded 19 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Eric: Sun Jun 21st, 2015 12:21 | 37th Post |
Graham Whistler wrote:I am at long last getting to grips with this auto focus and could kick myself for taking so long to get there. The main problem was finding out how to activate 11 or 51 etc points auto focus on the D810. Internet no real help and it was well hidden in Nikon D810 instruction book: These manuals are a pain in the bum. We should all get a brain implant for each new camera....a usb socket behind the ear. Not sure the f2.8 lenses are the answer to wildlife. Most of the bird shots I see seem to have used smaller apertures ( even f8 ). If the light isn't there it's either ISO or go down the pub.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sun Jun 21st, 2015 18:33 | 38th Post |
| This follows on from above picture of the Avocets with their new chicks all are taken with motor drive set to fast. Light good: f10 or f11, lens 640mm with 1.4 extender, 1/800 sec 320 ISO A third younger bird joins the parents! Attachment: Avocets1307.jpg (Downloaded 14 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sun Jun 21st, 2015 18:35 | 39th Post |
| Mother shouts, father takes action! Attachment: Avocets1305.jpg (Downloaded 14 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sun Jun 21st, 2015 18:35 | 40th Post |
| Please go away! Attachment: Avocets1304.jpg (Downloaded 14 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sun Jun 21st, 2015 18:37 | 41st Post |
| I know when to go! Attachment: Avocet1313.jpg (Downloaded 10 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| This is topic ID = 1188 | ||
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