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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 03:40
 
31st Post
Robert



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 jk wrote:
Robert wrote:
Tom, you have misunderstood, I HAVENT LOST ONE KEYWORD because I still had my original catalogue which I moved over from the external drive to the internal drive and re-connected with my images. Not only that but it's backed up too.

The point of my above post was that *some* keywords seem to be somehow attached to the image files, while some are not. This was not due to sidecar files. It was an experiment to help answer your question in post 21, to see if the keywords came with the images or the catalogue. I still don't know the answer, some keywords definitely do, some don't.

I want to try to figure what is different about the ones that do stick.

o.O

If you select ALL your images in Lightroom then tell it to write XMP files then do a Metadata sync it will make for all your images xmp files with the keywords and image ratings and your edit data.
I used this feature on Windows as I used iMatch for my cataloguing on Windows.

JK, I don't *WANT* XMP files, I am just trying to understand why some of my NEF files (which don't have sidecar files) seem to carry some keywords with them but not other (more recently applied) keywords.

I don't mind some Photoshop created XMP files but I don't particularly want Lightroom getting in on the act too. It just makes file management that bit harder.



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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 03:44
 
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Robert



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 jk wrote:
If you copy some images (NEF only) onto a different hard drive then open them with Photo Mechanic if they have embedded keywords - which they shouldnt unless you have used something on them that does open the image and write data then you should see no keywords.
Images with keywords present should always have xmp files or else a database entry in the software product that you are using.

I plan to try to analyse this, it's bugging me. When I have finished keywording I will have a play.



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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 09:29
 
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jk



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 Robert wrote: jk wrote:
I use LR for all my Keywording and Image Rating.

Lightroom stores all keywords and Image Rating in the lrcat database or in the xmp files. It creates against every image.

http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/2680/how-does-lightroom-store-data-about-photos


There are occasions when I have keyworded files and then gone back to find they havent been keyworded!.
I have decided this is due to the type ahead feature in the keywording so when I do an to save the keyword in fact all I have done is accepted the Keyword suggested.


I need to decide if the type ahead is desirable or not. Sometimes it is sometimes not!!

There is also another occasion when you can think you are keywording and in fact you are only doing some of the files not all. See the link below for a full explanation.
http://digital-photography-school.com/introduction-to-keywords-and-lightroom

Thanks JK, I have looked at the links. The first link has some interesting snippets which I will follow up.

As I add keywords I always check they have registered before I move to the next image, but they always do register. The only time I have a problem of this sort is using the recent keyword list.

Clicking on a keyword here 'toggles' the keyword i.e. turns it on or off. If the keyword in the recent keyword list is highlighted then it's selected, otherwise it's grey. If I am quickly checking for a particular keyword in a batch of images I use the recent keyword feature to turn on or off the particular keyword, sometimes I toggle it the wrong way. That can result in the keyword being either present or absent for that particular image, or if I have multiple images selected in grid view, all of the selected images.

Currently I am checking every single keyword and checking the keyword against the image for relevance.

The highlighting of the active keywords isn't as clear as it might be, sometimes when my eyes are very tired I make mistakes. I would guess at present I am spending at least ten hours a day checking the keywords.

OMG.... That must be a labour of love or else you have some seriously masochistic tendencies.
I dont think that I could do that for more than a few days.
:devil:



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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 09:43
 
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jk



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 Robert wrote: jk wrote:
Robert wrote:
Tom, you have misunderstood, I HAVENT LOST ONE KEYWORD because I still had my original catalogue which I moved over from the external drive to the internal drive and re-connected with my images. Not only that but it's backed up too.

The point of my above post was that *some* keywords seem to be somehow attached to the image files, while some are not. This was not due to sidecar files. It was an experiment to help answer your question in post 21, to see if the keywords came with the images or the catalogue. I still don't know the answer, some keywords definitely do, some don't.

I want to try to figure what is different about the ones that do stick.

o.O

If you select ALL your images in Lightroom then tell it to write XMP files then do a Metadata sync it will make for all your images xmp files with the keywords and image ratings and your edit data.
I used this feature on Windows as I used iMatch for my cataloguing on Windows.

JK, I don't *WANT* XMP files, I am just trying to understand why some of my NEF files (which don't have sidecar files) seem to carry some keywords with them but not other (more recently applied) keywords.

I don't mind some Photoshop created XMP files but I don't particularly want Lightroom getting in on the act too. It just makes file management that bit harder.
OK but when I initially came across xmp files on Windows I couldnt really work out why I needed them but over the last 4-5 years I have decided they are a necessary evil as I dont want my RAW files touched by any software other than in Read-only mode.

Prior to CS3 I think that editing was destructive unless you saved the JPG/NEF with a new name so it may be that you keyworded some files and this data has been embedded in the original file rather than the data being stored in a database or xmp file.

FYI:
Some trickery that I wouldnt do unless absolutely necessary.
1.  If you use PhotoMechanic to keyword nef files, It is possible to then delete the xmp files after the transfer and still have the data but no xmp files.

2.  If you use ExifTool/ExiftoolGUI to transfer gps and location data from xmp files to my nefs (after geolocating in LR) then likewise you can delete the xmp files without losing the info.

Of course I never do this but I could if I wanted to.....




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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 09:50
 
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Robert



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 jk wrote:

I dont think that I could do that for more than a few days.
:devil:



Must be well over three weeks now? :-)

I enjoy it, I am on the home straight now and my techniques are improving. it was a good move culling first, then organising, then keywording. One of the biggest challenges has been trying to date pre digital images. Some I will never get.

Once I am clear of this I intend to start digitising more of my films, slides and prints. Now I have cracked the problem of converting colour negatives to digital positive, it has opened up many more images to convert to digital, because now I can do it for free, before, it was costing me £10 for 36 negatives, so I was pretty selective.

I also have quite a few 110 negatives to convert, the lab couldn't do them.



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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 12:18
 
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TomOC



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 Robert wrote:
jk wrote:
Robert wrote:
Tom, you have misunderstood, I HAVENT LOST ONE KEYWORD because I still had my original catalogue which I moved over from the external drive to the internal drive and re-connected with my images. Not only that but it's backed up too.

The point of my above post was that *some* keywords seem to be somehow attached to the image files, while some are not. This was not due to sidecar files. It was an experiment to help answer your question in post 21, to see if the keywords came with the images or the catalogue. I still don't know the answer, some keywords definitely do, some don't.

I want to try to figure what is different about the ones that do stick.

o.O

If you select ALL your images in Lightroom then tell it to write XMP files then do a Metadata sync it will make for all your images xmp files with the keywords and image ratings and your edit data.
I used this feature on Windows as I used iMatch for my cataloguing on Windows.

JK, I don't *WANT* XMP files, I am just trying to understand why some of my NEF files (which don't have sidecar files) seem to carry some keywords with them but not other (more recently applied) keywords.

I don't mind some Photoshop created XMP files but I don't particularly want Lightroom getting in on the act too. It just makes file management that bit harder.

Robert -

In my case, I *don't* want .xmp files and that was the first reason I switched to all keywording in Photo Mechanic...not to mention it has a lot of features that let you work much faster.

JK- I have moved many files from drive to drive (copy and/or moved) and the keywords, ratings and labels all stay intact in the file with no .xmp created. Might be some setting I learned years ago, but that was my prime reason for using the app.

Tom



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Posted: Thu Apr 25th, 2013 15:02
 
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jk



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 I have a copy of PhotoMechanic v5 but I dont use it very often. I know it can keyword and rate images but I dont know where it puts this info.
Current best practice is that softwares should not write to the RAW files.

I'll need to do some digging to find out how PM works.



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Posted: Sun Apr 28th, 2013 17:22
 
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Doug

 

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 jk wrote:
I have decided they are a necessary evil...

In what way are they evil?

With properly managed XMP files - images on a drive have all metadata (keywords, crops, edits etc) attached through virtue of a tiny file with the same name
Easy to distinguish from the actual files using simple and long available tools in Finder OR Explorer (spotlight, sort by kind, sort by size etc)

A catastrophic loss of your lightroom catalog file and all it's backups (but not the images) would be relatively easy to recover from (you would lose collections and a few other lightroom catalog settings, but image specific data would be intact in those XMP files)

Without properly managed XMP files all you would have is the images exactly as they were when first imported:-O



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Posted: Mon Apr 29th, 2013 02:30
 
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jk



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 That is exactly my point Doug. If you do lose your lrcat file and you dont use xmp files then you are into keywording and rating your images from scratch.

The xmp files take up a lot of room as they have finite size and minimal file size on a large disk is the smallest sector size.

So Yes a necessary evil ;-)



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