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| D800 vs D800ESharpness or antiMoiré? | Rate Topic |
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| Posted by Doug: Wed May 2nd, 2012 09:09 | 1st Post |
| I'd probably pick the D800, but the D800E sure is a tempting option RobGalbraith has some nice comparisons showing the increased sharpness and moir© issues here http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11676-12555
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| Posted by jk: Wed May 2nd, 2012 10:16 | 2nd Post |
| I did this assessment when the details of the D800, D800E and D4 were out. I came to the same conclusions as you regarding this. I cant see the point of the extra hassle surrounding the use of the D800E. I guess some product photographers will actually benefit but I think it will cause me more problems than give advantage.
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Wed May 2nd, 2012 10:41 | 3rd Post |
I won't be getting either camera but from my own perspective I found the D800e photos to be sharper, more defined and the color better. Now keep in mind I am color blind so you and I aren't seeing the same thing 
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Eric: Wed May 2nd, 2012 11:40 | 4th Post |
| To me the 800E starts to look like it has sharpening artefacts. (the motorbike number plate in particular) although I know it isnt. Just starts to look too harsh. I wonder how much unsharp mask you need to apply to the 800 to get to the same effect? Not sure I would want to do any digital sharpening of the 800E image. If I am correct in that observation, I think I would go with the 800 and sharpen to taste.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Wed May 2nd, 2012 12:05 | 5th Post |
Eric wrote:To me the 800E starts to look like it has sharpening artefacts. (the motorbike number plate in particular) although I know it isnt. Just starts to look too harsh. Eric, I am not sure what you mean by sharpening artefacts, can you explain? Thanks
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Eric: Wed May 2nd, 2012 14:53 | 6th Post |
Squarerigger wrote:Eric wrote: Over sharpening can result in a halo effect along high contrast edges. I will do some examples tomorrow if I get a minute. On iPad at the moment.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Wed May 2nd, 2012 15:35 | 7th Post |
| Oversharpening is visible on a lot of magazine images as people tend to oversharpen.
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| Posted by Graham Whistler: Wed May 2nd, 2012 16:43 | 8th Post |
| D800 is quite sharp enough for me and as stated while I was away my D3X has been sold. The D800 is far sharper more fine detail than the D3X so progress over last 3 years shows. Auto focus also quicker and low noise at high ISO is better, now back in UK will do more tests on high ISO and report back results. I am unable at present able to comment on the D800E as I have seen no pixs as internet not been very fast while in USA and no time to look!
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Wed May 2nd, 2012 17:14 | 9th Post |
Eric wrote:Squarerigger wrote: I look forward to seeing what you are talking about. I always thought a sharp photo was one that was spot on focus. Now I have to come to grips with a photo being too sharp?
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by jk: Thu May 3rd, 2012 08:50 | 10th Post |
Gary not too sharp, but oversharpened.  I'm sure that Eric's examples will demonstrate the point very well.
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Thu May 3rd, 2012 09:35 | 11th Post |
jk wrote:Gary not too sharp, but oversharpened. I am sitting here with a big smile on my face trying to reduce this to a sharpness scale, if one should exist, with 1 being a degree of undersharp, and 10 being a degree oversharpened. This would have me believe that the D800 falls at the beginning of the scale and one can correct to the level of sharpness one wants while the D800e has a baseline sharpness above the 5 on the scale. Can't wait for Eric to toss out some photos which will make all this very clear.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Eric: Thu May 3rd, 2012 13:53 | 12th Post |
Squarerigger wrote: jk wrote: This crop of some berries has been (over) sharpened on the left half. Notice the 'halo' around the edges of the berries Attachment: DSCF0985.jpg (Downloaded 47 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Thu May 3rd, 2012 13:57 | 13th Post |
Graham Whistler wrote: D800 is quite sharp enough for me and as stated while I was away my D3X has been sold. The D800 is far sharper more fine detail than the D3X so progress over last 3 years shows. Auto focus also quicker and low noise at high ISO is better, now back in UK will do more tests on high ISO and report back results.Thanks for all your work in reviewing the D800 on the road. The only downside is I will have to wait till I get back from Austria in June, to hunt one down. :-(
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Thu May 3rd, 2012 14:48 | 14th Post |
| Thanks Eric, that clears up the entire problem I was having with too sharp. I have never noticed the phenominum before. I will be on the lookout for this over sharpening in my own as well as other photos.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by jk: Thu May 3rd, 2012 14:58 | 15th Post |
| I think that this highlights some of the issues I have with what I consider to be over Photoshopped images. Many/some magazine images that I see are over-enhanced and oversharpened but that is only my opinion as these images are published but then again many magazines do not pay reproduction fees but rely on people wanting to see their images in print!
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| Posted by Robert: Thu May 3rd, 2012 15:09 | 16th Post |
| If you notice in Eric's example, even pixels are sharpened and the slightest speck has a minor halo. It goes from a smooth background to a speckled background, despite being well out of focus. Another process which can be (easily) overdone is Highlight and Shadows in Photoshop. It can bring out some amazing detail from the shadows but as the same time produces similar halos. The problem can go unnoticed because often the user is looking at the shadow detail and not noticing what's happening elsewhere in the image.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Thu May 3rd, 2012 15:17 | 17th Post |
Robert wrote:If you notice in Eric's example, even pixels are sharpened and the slightest speck has a minor halo. It goes from a smooth background to a speckled background, despite being well out of focus. Its why I always commend people to apply filters within masked areas. It may take longer but the results are more controlled, and targetted. As you say, the background was already well out of focus...so why sharpen it? in fact it's contrary to the whole concept of boketh.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Thu May 3rd, 2012 15:17 | 18th Post |
| That's a very good point Robert. I have decided to take a look at some of the photos I have taken to see if I went overboard with the sharpening or shadow correction in Aperture. I am sure I am guilty of some over "something" when processing some photos.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by jk: Thu May 3rd, 2012 15:22 | 19th Post |
| That is a problem when anyone is concentrating on a part of the image and fail to check the whole image.
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Thu May 3rd, 2012 15:41 | 20th Post |
| I think you have correctly identified an area of weakness I have when adjusting photos Jonathan. I have a tendency to focus on the one area I find needs work but do not see the photo as a whole. This issue has been very good for my education.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by jk: Thu May 3rd, 2012 18:01 | 21st Post |
Squarerigger wrote:I think you have correctly identified an area of weakness I have when adjusting photos Jonathan. I have a tendency to focus on the one area I find needs work but do not see the photo as a whole. I think we all tend to fall into that trap from time to time.
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| Posted by Robert: Thu May 3rd, 2012 18:11 | 22nd Post |
| Another thing which can spoil images is messing about with them too much, I did this in the early days trying to find a way to get the image as I wanted it. Now, once I find how to get what I want I start over and do it in as few steps as possible. I tend now to have a routine with a given type of image to reduce the editing I do to a minimum. images can look overworked and tired!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Fri May 4th, 2012 02:02 | 23rd Post |
| Yes that is a good way of not introducing too many rubbish artifacts into the image. Fortunately we have the NEF to use as a unedited starting point. I really cant understand why anyone would choose to convert to DNG and and throw away the original unless you are fooled by the Adobe speak. DNG is just another type of RAW file. This is an excellent thread I found the other day. http://www.openraw.org/node/1482/ Thomas Knoll from Adobe give the case for and the original poster argues against it. I know which side I support. Sorry Thomas Knoll you may be clever but sometimes you are too much so and cant see the wood for the trees.
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Fri May 4th, 2012 07:15 | 24th Post |
| I think your comment about over working digital images is spot on. With all the tools available, it is too easy to go over board with adjustments. I have also reduced my time in front of the computer making changes. I now keep comparing the master RAW file to changes and evaluating if necessary or needed at all.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Fri May 4th, 2012 08:19 | 25th Post |
Eric wrote:Graham Whistler wrote:D800 is quite sharp enough for me and as stated while I was away my D3X has been sold. The D800 is far sharper more fine detail than the D3X so progress over last 3 years shows. Auto focus also quicker and low noise at high ISO is better, now back in UK will do more tests on high ISO and report back results.Thanks for all your work in reviewing the D800 on the road.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Eric: Fri May 4th, 2012 10:50 | 26th Post |
Squarerigger wrote: As I dont have a D800 I will make do with the wife's D7000 ....when I can prise it from her grasp. I will also take the Fuji X100 for general walkaround scenics. And of course the IR kit will be in the bag.  It all depends on the weather. Its been very good weather in S.Austria this last few weeks. But I fear we will be taking the atrocious UK weather with us. Say a little prayer. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Fri May 4th, 2012 11:46 | 27th Post |
Eric wrote:Squarerigger wrote:As I dont have a D800 I will make do with the wife's D7000 ....when I can prise it from her grasp. I think the D7000 is a great travel camera and I am sure you will make good use of it's capabilities. Wishing you a wonderful trip and great weather!
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Constable: Fri May 4th, 2012 15:11 | 28th Post |
| Just got a text that my 800E is here! This could be fun. Ed
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| Posted by jk: Fri May 4th, 2012 15:43 | 29th Post |
| That's good news Ed. I'll be very interested to hear how you get on with it. Whether the moire effects mooted are actually happening more easily or not. Good luck. BTW: Do you buy your Nikon's from the small Nikon shop on the left hand side of the road that runs from the square where the SuisseHotel is located down to the river ? Or some other shop ? I never did find another Nikon shop in Basle.
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| Posted by Constable: Sat May 5th, 2012 10:44 | 30th Post |
| I hope to collect it on Monday ...might take it to the US with me on Wednesday for a flying (36 h) visit. There is an interesting comparison of D800E with Leica S2 http://blog.mingthein.com/...05/05/an-unfair-fight-nikon-d800e-vs-leica-s2-p/ Botton line ... Leica lenses are infinitely better than SLR lenses (which I guess we knew) Ed (there is anNPS and leice pro dealer in Basel now - Marlin Foto)
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| Posted by richw: Sat May 5th, 2012 20:12 | 31st Post |
| Thanks for posting, that is a great blog and first time I have come across it. I followed it to his Flickr page, some great B&W shots taken in Greenwich park London, all done with a P&S after the high end review. Stunning images worth a look. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mingthein/4410396007/lightbox/
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| Posted by Robert: Sun May 6th, 2012 01:57 | 32nd Post |
| Thanks Rich, as you say a stunning set of images, Not all with the GS, D90, iPhone, D700, D3s and even a Canon. I have had to rest, I am suffering superb image overload! <VBG> Will go back and look at the rest. The watch images and the red Mercedes are outstanding but so are countless others. Also a Mac user I see... 
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sun May 6th, 2012 03:52 | 33rd Post |
| Thanks for the link to the review Ed. I read it end to end and can say that whilst I have never seen or used a Leica S2 that it is probably closest to what I consider would be my favourite SLR camera that I never owned but used, namely the Pentax 67. This camera and my Hasselblad 2000FC are as far as I remember the cameras I most enjoyed using and also produced awesome quality. The F2, F3 yes were great but then I got lazy and got a F801 but not the same outright quality. The D3 returned me to happy land as long as I dont get sloppy and in the studio with flash is incredible. My Fuji XP1 with its 16MP seems to yield incredible colour and sharpness (maybe the D4 would be better than the D3S after all!) but for me a D800 is the next one not for the MP count but because of its AF performance but also I can shoot FX and crop out to x1.5 as though I was shooting a DX camera, but also in the studio I will get incredible results.[code][/code]
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| Posted by jk: Sun May 6th, 2012 03:59 | 34th Post |
| The Flickr image set are very good. The watch pictures are beautifully lit. The cityscapes are well seen and captured.
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| Posted by Eric: Sun May 6th, 2012 06:09 | 35th Post |
Constable wrote: I hope to collect it on Monday ...might take it to the US with me on Wednesday for a flying (36 h) visit.The tendency for the D800E to colour fringe would put me off....unless that was down to a lens incompatibility? The edge shot at f8 in the first series is particularly poor. Look at the Hotel Fortuna sign and the vertical windoe edges on the right hand building.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Sun May 6th, 2012 06:11 | 36th Post |
| Thanks Ed and Rich for the links. I really enjoyed his "street" photography - some great shots captured.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Eric: Sun May 6th, 2012 06:15 | 37th Post |
Squarerigger wrote: Thanks Ed and Rich for the links. I really enjoyed his "street" photography - some great shots captured. Yes, just goes to show.... equipment isnt everything. As they say in Formula 1.... "The most important part of a formula 1 racing car, is the nut that holds the wheel"
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Sun May 6th, 2012 07:22 | 38th Post |
Eric wrote:Squarerigger wrote:Thanks Ed and Rich for the links. I really enjoyed his "street" photography - some great shots captured. Very true Eric. I read some of the comments regarding his street photography and one of his responses was interesting and true these days. One comment spoke to his ability to capture the subject without being noticed taking the shot. His response was it is getting more difficult and and putting a "bad taste" in one's mouth. He even went so far as to say it was making him question the phot "gig".
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Constable: Mon May 7th, 2012 14:40 | 39th Post |
| Picked up the 800E this afternoon. No real experience yet, but it feels more like a D700/D300 than a D7000. It seems to be no slouch at high ISO. ISO 6400, artificial light, no flash, 105 mm macro, 1/60th handheld Attachment: 800_0025.jpg (Downloaded 27 times)
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| Posted by Constable: Mon May 7th, 2012 14:41 | 40th Post |
| OK JK ... how do I add two pics to one message? Here is a very hard crop Attachment: 800_0025-2.jpg (Downloaded 27 times)
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| Posted by jk: Tue May 8th, 2012 02:42 | 41st Post |
| Thanks for the shots Ed. Those are very good for ISO 6400. I think that you will have fun with this camera and you macro shots. I look forward to getting a D800 sometime in the next few months. I might even go for the E version if you give good reports. BTW: I got myself a Drobo 4 bay unit as a test and if it works well for me I will upgrade to a 8 bay unit. I need to go to UK to pickup or wait for someone to bring it out with them. Seems like you have a spare Mac Mini. I can add to my stack of two 
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| Posted by Constable: Tue May 8th, 2012 13:27 | 42nd Post |
| And here is the d4 with the same lens, same subject, ISO 6400 Not all that much different ... JK how the **** do you put two images side by side in one post? Ed
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| Posted by Constable: Tue May 8th, 2012 13:27 | 43rd Post |
| It doesn't like me ... why can I not upload a 326 kb Jpeg ... answer me that JK!
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| Posted by Constable: Tue May 8th, 2012 13:28 | 44th Post |
| And here is the d4 with the same lens, same subject, ISO 6400 Not all that much different ... JK how the **** do you put two images side by side in one post? Ed
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| Posted by Constable: Tue May 8th, 2012 13:29 | 45th Post |
| The same with the D4 at ISO 6400. Blame JK that I cannot put the two images side by side Attachment: D41_2276.jpg (Downloaded 53 times)
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| Posted by Robert: Tue May 8th, 2012 15:36 | 46th Post |
| Ed, combine them in Photoshop. Careful Ed, JK will be counting the asterisks. 
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Constable: Tue May 8th, 2012 16:08 | 47th Post |
| I've heard about you with your fancy city ways and your photoshops.........
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| Posted by Robert: Tue May 8th, 2012 17:22 | 48th Post |
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Tue May 8th, 2012 17:40 | 49th Post |
| This is much the same quality I got with my high ISO tests with the D800. JK had some of my early RAW files at 3200ISO.
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by jk: Wed May 9th, 2012 03:09 | 50th Post |
Constable wrote: And here is the d4 with the same lens, same subject, ISO 6400It's a limitation of the software for the forum. There are loads of little niggles that we will need to try and find and fix/enhance over the coming months. Need to build a list of niggles.
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| Posted by jk: Wed May 9th, 2012 03:14 | 51st Post |
| The D4 result looks pretty good as well. I think I alluded to it before that I thing that 24MP is the sweet spot for digital but that is only at this point in time. New technology updates will move these goal posts. I am finding that 16MP gives me great image quality and when I get a better RAW processor for the XPro1 RAW files then I will really be able to test fully. So a 24MP DX (D400 ?) or FX (D600 ?) camera will be very nice but since Nikon pushed the boat out with the D800 then I'll have to accept the extra MP and improve my technique.
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| Posted by Graham Whistler: Wed May 9th, 2012 05:18 | 52nd Post |
| This is a small section of D800 test in very low available mixed light in my work room 3200 ISO lens wide open. I would never want to shoot like this but quality not bad at all! Attachment: D800 3200 ISO.jpg (Downloaded 45 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Wed May 9th, 2012 05:19 | 53rd Post |
| This is whole pix Attachment: D800 Sample 3.jpg (Downloaded 45 times)
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by jk: Wed May 9th, 2012 08:47 | 54th Post |
| Read the barcodes in the orignal!!
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| Posted by Graham Whistler: Wed May 9th, 2012 13:31 | 55th Post |
| The point of focus was on 04533-03 and is quite shallow as the lens was wide open. As often stated I have little use for high ISO but JK asked me to do that test and send him the NEF Raw file. I was very impressed with how will the D800 did in light I could hardly see by! There is very little noise in shadows, it is better than the D3X could do at 3200 ISO.
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by Constable: Sun May 13th, 2012 14:24 | 56th Post |
| Just got back from the US and took the first opportunity to play with the D800E this afternoon. It is a mean macro machine. It needs the very best of glass. A couple of down-ressed examples are here: http://bugsbytes.zenfolio.com/p41851089 These are all handheld and ISO 200 or 400. Noise is very low. Ed Attachment: 800_0105.jpg (Downloaded 24 times)
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Sun May 13th, 2012 15:41 | 57th Post |
| "Mean macro machine" seems like a pretty good endorsement of the D800e Ed. Super photo! Where were you visiting in the US?
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by jk: Sun May 13th, 2012 17:18 | 58th Post |
Constable wrote: Just got back from the US and took the first opportunity to play with the D800E this afternoon.That looks pretty awesome for depth of colour and useful in macro mode. Please confirm that my trip to Basle to pick up your S2 will not be wasted and that I can also have some of the delicious asparagus soup which should be in season now.
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| Posted by Constable: Mon May 14th, 2012 02:41 | 59th Post |
Squarerigger wrote:" Hi Gary 48 hour trip through to Visit Virginia Tech for the Commencement Ed
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| Posted by Constable: Mon May 14th, 2012 02:44 | 60th Post |
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That looks pretty awesome for depth of colour and useful in macro mode. Please confirm that my trip to Basle to pick up your S2 will not be wasted and that I can also have some of the delicious asparagus soup which should be in season now. I will do some comparison of S2 and 800E shortly .... funnily enough the S2 seems more tolerant to my way of working (90% keepers handheld) compared to the 800E (70% but only after a couple of hundred exposures). I found some wild asparagus the other day, so will send you a pikky of that when I get home Ed
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Mon May 14th, 2012 07:05 | 61st Post |
Constable wrote:Squarerigger wrote: My oldest son is a product of Virginia Tech. Did you have a relative graduate? I thought you may have been visiting Jefferson Lab in Newport News, in which case I was going to be very upset you didn't allow me to be your host since I live very close to the facility.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Constable: Mon May 14th, 2012 07:57 | 62nd Post |
| No I was part of the stage party at the Graduate commencement and in the festivities with the first lady ... very interesting! Ed
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Mon May 14th, 2012 08:18 | 63rd Post |
Constable wrote:No I was part of the stage party at the Graduate commencement and in the festivities with the first lady ... very interesting! Very nice Ed, I trust they treated you well and you had a pleasant journey.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
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